Logic Independence

Find applications of axiom manipulation that can beat logic independence.

But, except for applying axiom manipulation to get logic independence and freedom.

To be more precise, I'm curious if it is possible to manipulate the axiom "if unaffected by logic, one can act in a manner inconsistent with logic" the logical independence can be nullified.

title says it all

I'll get right to the point: I feel like, in a wiki full of powers that can simply shrug off logic and do impossible things, we need to make a distinction between the logic we use when debating about powers and the logic that powers operate off of and, in many cases (e.g absolute powers), go completely beyond.

If we don't, then we get conclusions such as Logic Manipulation or Defiance being above absolute because any time you try to argue "well, absolute powers transcend logic completely and have no limits, so they're completely beyond such things", that can be countered with "the only reason you can say absolutes are beyond a logic manipulator is by applying logic, but logic doesn't apply to the logic manipulator, so they can be beyond absolute".

You can see how this can cause issues. This one is particularly bad because it is literally impossible to argue with anyone who takes this view of logic manipulation/defiance, because any argument you make can be shot down with 'your argument relies on logic, so it doesn't apply'.

This is why I think we should create a distinction between the logic we as readers/writers/etc use to debate about powers and their wielders and the in-universe logic that powers like Logic Manipulation and Logic Defiance actually relate to.

So my own thoughts on this distinction are that in-universe logic forms the structure and foundations of the omniverse. Different multiverses/universes may operate off of less or different logic, but all exist within an overarching logical structure. This is also the structure from which most laws/rules are derived (as in, physical laws, supernatural laws, etc), and where normal concepts can exist. Logic Manipulation/Defiance controls or defies this logical structure to do the impossible within the omniverse.

Beyond the omniverse, however, is where meta-concepts exist, being completely transcendent of logic, where the insane, illogical and impossible are mundane. The only things giving structure at this point are Almighty Laws, which are similarly beyond logic. On the level of Almighty Laws are other Absolutes, which are also utterly beyond logic. On these levels, a Logic Manipulator or a being capable of ignoring logic are not so different to normal people, as the logical structure that they control or defy has no bearing anyway.

Then there's the logic we use as readers/writers/etc. It is exactly what it seems like. It is the kind of logic that I used to make the above statements. It applies to everything, as it is beyond the verse in which in-universe logic, and everything beyond it, exists. This is the kind of logic that we use to actually debate things, including things like Logic Manipulation.

So, I found this power Reality Defiance its defined as "The ability to defy reality by interaction with the nonexistent." I really like it, it's a pretty cool concept but like I feel like the name is off for the description of it wouldn't it be more like Nonexistent/existence Interaction, or maybe Paradoxical Interaction, then have Reality Defiance be a new page that is the power to defy/ignore reality like all the other defiance pages (Paradox, Logic, Defiance Inducement.) as well as being a technique of the new interaction page.

Currently it seems more like a technique as its achieving 'Reality Defiance' through interaction with the nonexistent as opposed simply defying reality like the other defiance powers (See above paragraph). As I said before the concept is pretty cool interacting with the nonexistent or maybe unreality or immaterial would be a better as nonexistent would be something completely outside of reality and unreality. The concepts discussed on the capabilities would fall more under immaterial (physics, properties, distance, time, weight). Hmm so it looks like it interacts with the conceptual aspects of reality in order to achieve effects of defying reality. That would probably be a fanon power idk any users, but reality defiance would have a few reality warpers who use it on themselves ig.

tldr: Reality Defiance = "The ability to defy reality by interaction with the nonexistent." I really like the idea, but it isn't in line with the other defiance pages (Paradox, Logic, Defiance Inducement) seems like a technique. Should it be reworked and split into 2 different powers? One being Reality Defiance and the other some kind of interaction possibly Immaterial Interaction or Paradoxical Interaction.

Btw I realised I tend to propose ideas more than make actual changes so ye this is more food for thought than any kind of declaration or petition.

Might be a stupid question since well Almighty Science is basically Omnipotence focused on science or something like that, but I was wondering if a user of Science Ascendancy could at least be unaffected by AS (ik they have each other under applications) or does the Omnipotent aspect just say, "no" and do whatever it wants to the SA user?

https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Rule_Bending#:~:text=Capabilities,collective%20phenomena%20from%20altered%20effects

What feats could someone achieve with this ability...in fighting, movement, etc?