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  • We all know about the Five elements. Earth, Wind, Fire, Lightning, and Water. They are the basis for all of the elemental powers on this site. But the thing is, they seem a bit boring, at least to me. I fear they are becoming too plain in combat and have weaknesses that EVERYONE knows about. I think there is a better version of the elements, with each miing the aspects of each other with a more unique appearance.

    For Eample:

    Plasma = Fire + Lightning

    Snow/Ice = Water + Wind

    Magma = Earth + Fire

    Dust = Wind + Earth

    Storm = Lightning + Wind

    Based On The Wu Xing Wheel

    Fire + Wood = Smoke/Ash

    Water + Metal = Cloud/Mist

    Earth + Fire = Magma

    Wood + Earth = Magnetism/Dust

    Metal + Water = Storm

    Note this is just my prototype. If any of you have better ideas, please reply with them.

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    • Naruto already did the combining elements thing. Check out elemental kekkai genkai. 

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    • wouldn't plasma be Fire + Air since Plasmas are simply ionized gases. And I'm pretty sure lightning is already a plasma (correct me if i'm wrong)

      I like the sound of it but you'll have to do a lot of your own private research since elements like Magma have little to go off as far as this wiki is concerned.

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    • Technically, lightning is plasma.

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    • Weell, lightning is an electric discharge, and it does produce quite hot plasma.

      Objectively, elements like "dust" and "magma" and "storm" are quite nonsensical.

      Dust is fine particles of matter, so sand is just rock in smaller parts. What's more, traditional dust we see in old houses and mostly every building, is accumulation of plant pollen, textil fibers and human skin. It doesn't seem like a good idea of an element.

      Magma is just rock at very high temperature. It is composed of many elements and minerals. By this logic, you could heat up and melt/burn any random object and call it a new element, because of how different every molten/burnt object would be.

      Same goes for snow/ice. That's just cooled water. If you cool down a metal, it doesn't change its properties, but by this logic, it should be called a new element, right? What about cold gases? Cold liquids? Is frozen brick an element?

      And storm is definitely not made out of lightning, and not always made out of air. It can be any major disturbance in atmosphere, not just air, but also other planets' atmospheres and even the Sun, since it also technically has atmosphere. Also keep in mind that tornadoes, hail, blizzard, snowstorm, rain, heat bursts and even watersprouts. Applying your elemental logic, storm would be composed of AIR + FIRE + WIND + WATER + ICE + SAND + BASICALLY ANY LIQUID, SOLID OR GAS THAT CAN OCCUR IN ATMOSPHERE.

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    • Here's a transcendent fused elements; Aether + Nether = Ethernal element.

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    • When I brought up the subject, i meant in terms of manipulating the elements like with either Esoteric Element Manipulation or Warping. Each of the elements I brought up were because they could be manipulated in a similar fashion as the original elements, but would have properties that made them more effective in terms of combat or MAYBE altering the environment.

      For example:

      -Fighting with water alone always seemed less effective since the worst someone could do is cause concussive damage. Mixing it into snow or ice would let it keep most of the malleability while giving it a more solid edge when needed.

      -The same could be said for Wind. A a basic user could only do concussive forms of damage, but mixed with Dust, it would allow them the same mobility and widespread radius, while also adding little solids that could bludgeon or cut a foe.

      -For Fire, I was considering mixing it into Ash/SMoke since would give it a more solid form to do more damage with, but I already fused Fire with Earth to make magma and I wanted to fuse each element equally.

      I honestly didnt think about scientific possibilities and I just wanted to clarify my reasoning..

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    • Well, maybe you're looking at it from different angle, then. You are viewing the basic elements as quite weak. Elements have immense power if wielded correctly.

      Fighting with water IS weak if all you do is shooting water balls at your opponent. Ever heard of water cutting? Or maybe using the water in opponent's body? Humans are mostly made out of water. And just like I said, snow/ice is just water at lower temperature. So just use the vapor and humidity in the air, draw water from living organisms, freeze it, boil it, compress it, water can be immensely devastating element when used cleverly.

      Air element users could suffocate any enemy, or use pressure to their advantage. Or if we're talking just wind, ever heard of Neptune? Winds in its atmosphere are so immensely fast and powerful, that if you were there for a second, you would get ripped to shreds.

      Also, fusing Fire and Earth doesn't make much sense. Fire is heated gas, so if you were to mix those two properly, you would just create earth sponge filled with gas. If you think about it, magma hardly ever even comes into contact with fire, since there isn't much gas where magma is underground. Magma is created by heating up earth.

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    • To all the people trying to deliberate elemental combinations with ONLY physics and chemistry, that's not how discussions like this are supposed to work. These are classical elements that have certain characteristics/functions that correspond to their respective elemental type. This is why, in Naruto for example, earth and water combine to make wood style; water and wind combine to make ice style; and plenty of examples in Dungeons & Dragons.

      But I do agree that the basic elements are by absolutely no means weak because of the points Solipsius listed above. Other than that, Elemental Recomposition should have the information you are looking for.

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    • Hey, thanks for notifying! Thanks to you, I noticed that terrible botched Nature Transformation diagram on Elemental Recomposition page and uploaded better one.

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    • No problem. And thanks for replacing that diagram. Makes everything much cleaner.

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    • I shouldnt have said the original elements were weak. Their effective in their own way. What I meant to say is that it's gotten a little bland from my perspective and figured they could be remixed with combined elements.

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    • Hey, CoolCat, love to help, especially if that douche SageM doesn't get in the way, but I've been away for quite a while and can't find anything digging through the history... Why were users of Omnipotence like Presence and Mother of Existence removed? Weren't they like one of the first users of that power here?

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    • CoolCat123450 wrote:
      To all the people trying to deliberate elemental combinations with ONLY physics and chemistry, that's not how discussions like this are supposed to work. These are classical elements that have certain characteristics/functions that correspond to their respective elemental type. This is why, in Naruto for example, earth and water combine to make wood style; water and wind combine to make ice style; and plenty of examples in Dungeons & Dragons.

      But I do agree that the basic elements are by absolutely no means weak because of the points Solipsius listed above. Other than that, Elemental Recomposition should have the information you are looking for.

      Thank you for clarifying this. I didnt know how to put my reasoning.

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    • well as far as a different version of the ancient elements I would just like to pose a question right off the bat, so to speak. Why do we call them the five elements when really they are all forms of energy (kinetic in the form of wind or air if you prefer, fire, water, lightning and potential energy in the form of earth)? I for one have always tried to understand the underlying truths that nature in general and the universe in particular can impart (I suppose one could call this a lifelong search for either metaphysical or pataphysical truths). For example I've found that one rule that nature in general rarely if ever breaks is balance. If something happens something else usually happens to either counteract it, redress the imbalance anything introduces, or to increase something else in direct response to the change in question. For example say a massive forest fire flares up in say California. Yes that's bad because thousands of lives (human and otherwise) are endangered and massive collateral damage ensues. But after the fire has passed the earth is made richer and more fertile to allow local populations to repopulate the area. Another principle (although one I admit I had a little help in teasing out, from Isaac Newton who despite all his delightful eccentricity was a profound genius and Iroh from Avatar the Last Air Bender) is the principle of opposites and reverses. This is a bit of a derivation of the law of balance but no less significant because of that. If something exists its opposite and reverse must also exist (regardless of whether humans can, do, or will understand, comprehend, or become aware of their existence or not). This is reflected in the dualism of the four ancient elements (lightning not qualifying as an element because it is a result of the interaction of two or more of the elements) fire, water, air, and earth. Fire and water are not opposites (because both are necessary parts of the natural order) but they are reverses of each other. Fire requires the absence of water to  either begin or persistent whereas water is necessary to contain fire. Fire is a sudden intteruptive force whereas water is a representation of natures infinite adaptability. Earth is constant and changes gradually over immense spans of time whereas air (perhaps best personified by wind) is ethereal, necessarily capricious, and changes yet can be boteh benign and frightening (often both simultaneously). Yet before and all else all the elements (regardless of which ones one is talking about or which culture one is using as a reference point), ancient and modern, are simply forms that energy and matter have taken for however brief or lengthy a span of time (whethers its the seeming permanence of earth to the evershifting shapes and power of water, air, and fire). If we wish to understand energy and matter we need to cast aside even that basic distinction. For if there is one truth that human history has born out time and again it is that those who changed the conversation (or better yet started an entirely new covseration) have set the examples we ought to use to guide and shape who we have become (and thus what we strive for). And what we must strive for is quite simple. We must strive not mirely to see and comprehend (for both are necessarily passive) but to understand and empathize with all life (whether we understand it or not) for all life (or at least all life on Earth) is one and all life deserves to exist and discover its purpose (for without purpose no life would exist at all)

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    • Actually, there are four classical elements, no description (as far as I know) can describe their characteristics perfectly, but I think that this will do: earth (solid), water (liquid), air/wind (gas), and fire (plasma) whereas lightning is a branch of fire, like ice is a branch of water, sand and metal are branches of earth etc.

      Also, an element is "the most basic rudimentary piece of", and etymologically, the word comes from the Latin "elementum" (“a first principle, element, rudiment”). In this sense, since snow is shavings of ice which is the solid form of water, magma is heated/molten earth, dust is pieces of earth in the wind, lightning is a higher level of fire or lightning is super-heated fire etc., they are neither "the most basic rudimentary piece of "nor “a first principle, rudiment” therefore cannot and should not be considered "elements".

      Therefore, considering this and the historical Greek philosophies which this is based upon, I don't think that we should take "Naruto" as an "Element Handbook"/"Element Bible/Gospel".

      Now, having typed that, even in the "Naruto" Universe, Yamato admits that there is no such thing as "Wood Style" nor is there any such thing as the "Wood Element" as it depends upon Earth and Water; they call it "Style"/"Element" for convenience and simplicity, not for accurate categorization.

      Yamato - "I can only use Earth and Water natures. You see, technically, there is no Wood Nature." Kakashi - "You use the two simultaneously."

      Naruto Book 35. Page 124 OR Naruto Chapter 316: Let the Training Begin!!. (counting the title page) Page 5

      Now then, regarding the issue of fire and "plasma"...

      "The big difference between regular gas and plasma is that in a plasma a fair fraction of the atoms are ionized.  That is, the gas is so hot, and the atoms are slamming around so hard, that some of the electrons are given enough energy to (temporarily) escape their host atoms.  The most important effect of this is that a plasma gains some electrical properties that a non-ionized gas doesn’t have; it becomes conductive and it responds to electrical and magnetic fields.  In fact, this is a great test for whether or not something is a plasma."  

      more at http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/05/q-is-fire-a-plasma-what-is-plasma/

      "an ionized gas consisting of positive ions and free electrons in proportions resulting in more or less no overall electric charge, typically at low pressures (as in the upper atmosphere and in fluorescent lamps) or at very high temperatures (as in stars and nuclear fusion reactors)."

      Google Dictionary 

      Although it may a weak example when compared to say lightning, stars, space storms etc., fire is consistent with the generally accepted chemistry and physics defection of "plasma" (visible ionized gas).

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    • Fire is kinda fun in physics. You see, everything around us creates light (or more correctly, electromagnetic radiation). Because everything has temperature. The higher the temperature is, the higher the frequency of that radiation. For things at room temperature, this frequency is low. Infrared, microwave... But when you heat something up enough, the radiation's frequency reaches visible part of the spectrum. For example, if you heat up metal enough, it becomes red, then orange, then it melts.
      Important thing is, it becomes red at around 700 Kelvin.

      Now, when something rapidly oxidizes, the oxidation is highly exotermic and heats up the gas it reacts with. And depending on material, the gas's temperature can reach 700 Kelvin or more. That's what we call fire. When the gas is heated up to this point. Little less, the fire is invisible. Add more temperature (like a burner for example), the fire shifts on the spectrum to blue and then to ultraviolet (which we can't see).

      Now, fire DOES produce plasma, IF it's hot enough. At 700 K, that temperature is hardly enough to create plasma, but some might occur. However, things like bunsen burner would definitely create plasma.

      Lightning produces plasma because its temperature is 30,000 K. But technically, lightning has nothing to do with fire. Fire is a gas from chemical reaction, lightning is a flow of electrons from electrostatic physical reaction.

      Finally, if you want to analyze that old concept of 4 elements, it kinda fits the 4 basic states of matter (even though there are more than 10 states of matter), but that's just how people tried to explain the world. We know that things are made out of atoms, they thought they were made out of different amounts of these elements. For example, they thought soul was made out of fire and wind.
      Some cultures used different equivalents. 5 element model of Fire-Air-Water-Earth-Aether. Chineses Fire-Water-Earth-Wood-Metal model... It's just very old science.

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    • @Solipsius 

      Intriguing, by the way, would you please provide the Fahrenheit temperature scale as well (for convenience purposes)?

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    • Definitely. Although I don't support imperial and old-fashioned units.

      The temperature at which objects begin to radiate visible light, the Draper point, is around 900-1000°F. That's the same temperature as regular old fire. Most high-temperature burners reach temperatures of 3000-5000°F.

      The temperature of lightning is roughly 50,000°F.

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    • When did members of ths page get so much interest in how they are scientifically possible. There is a page devoted to powers that are about manipulating combined versions of the classic elements (ie Elemental Recomposition). All I wanted to ask was which one would be good 2.0 versions of the original forms of elemental manipulation. LOL

      Also, the Plasma suggestion was just a guess. I honestly thought Smoke/Ash would be a good one, but I already used fused fire with earth and I wanted to make it all equal. Im honestly thinking of switching the basis into the Wu Xing Element wheel. 

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    • Btw. Hope someone could see and show this to Gabriel456.  Thanks you.

      Here

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    • Why don't you send him a message yourself?

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    • Just curious, Zxankou. Is this for a story you are working on? The Wu Xing Elemental wheel is rarely seen modeled in modern fiction so I would love to see what you could do with that.

      It seems most people here have the Avatarverse perspective on how elements have subsets of the element rather than the Narutoverse where elements combine to create a unique elements, and to be fair, the Avatarverse is the more realistic depiction.

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    • Yeah, Avatar got it really well. Elemental Recombination in Naruto doesn't make much sense, to be honest... I mean, keep watering a boulder, you're definitely going to make a tree this way... Oh, also, you wanna a magnet? No worries, just keep blowing on a rock. Logic, man...

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    • I do think it would add something new to a story about characters with elemental abilities. Mostly I just figured with the Element Recomposition page, there would be fused elements that could serve as a new version of each original element.

      Also, I was thinking using the Wu Xing Wheel because apparently the elements there are tied to more than just the element they name. 

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    • Solipsius wrote:
      Why don't you send him a message yourself?

      I'm not sure on how to search for other user's profile here. :/

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    • Nvm

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    • Ninjaboy14 wrote:
      Solipsius wrote:
      Why don't you send him a message yourself?
      I'm not sure on how to search for other user's profile here. 

      Very simple. Goto http://powerlisting.wikia.com/special:userlist and search the username 

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    • all of these people got some scientific reasoning for this shit but I think it sounds epic. 

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    • @Solipsius

      "The temperature of lightning is roughly 50,000°F." Lightning is that cold, really? I thought that Earth lightning was at least 500,000°F; my science teacher said that for something to be considered a "true plasma" (whatever that means), it must be at least 500,000°F, but I might have heard him wrong.

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    • @Zxankou14 


      "When did members of ths page get so much interest in how they are scientifically possible. There is a page devoted to powers that are about manipulating combined versions of the classic elements (i.e. Elemental Recomposition). All I wanted to ask was which one would be good 2.0 versions of the original forms of elemental manipulation. LOL"

      Apparently, either I have failed to communicate my points clearly and effectively or we have a general failure of communication, so I will try again by taking it from the top to the bottom...

      1. The Classical elements, which most modern superpowers are based upon, come from Greek philosophy:

      "Classical elements typically refer to the concepts in ancient Greece of earthwaterairfire, and aether, which were proposed to explain the nature and complexity of all matter in terms of simpler substances.[1][2] Ancient cultures in EgyptBabyloniaJapanTibet, and India had similar lists, sometimes referring in local languages to "air" as "wind" and the fifth element as "void". The Chinese Wu Xing system lists Wood ( ), Fire ( huǒ), Earth ( ), Metal ( jīn), and Water ( shuǐ), though these are described more as energies or transitions than as types of material."

      More is on the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element#Greece 

      Bottom-line: the Greek Classical Elements describe material types in their simplest forms in the simplest of ways.


      2. Although I don't completely agree with it, I will use the Ogre Battle 64 model as it seems to best explain my point:

      In said game, there are 4 of the 5 Greek Classical Elements are used (i.e., earth, water, wind, and fire) and also “Light” and “Darkness”; this system is the basis for all magic in the game.

      This system allows magic combinations:

      EARTH, WATER, WIND, FIRE, BANE (DARKNESS) (Virtue (Light) is not used offensively to be combined in this game)

      EARTH + WIND = Not possible

      WATER + FIRE = Not possible

      EARTH + BANE = Not possible

      WATER + BANE = Not possible

      ELEMENT + ELEMENT = Level 1/Level 2 Result (description)

      WIND + FIRE = PLASMA BALL/PLASMA STORM (Gigantic balls of plasma electrocute the enemy.)

      EARTH + FIRE = LAVA SHOT/LAVA FLOW (A volcano erupts and sprays the enemy with lava.)

      EARTH + WATER = CLAY ASSAULT/BLUE SPIRAL (A geyser erupts, blasting the enemy with clay/water which may poison the target(s).)

      WIND + WATER = IONOSPHERE/ATMOSPHERE (A globe of atmospheric energy hits the enemy, potentially sleeping them.)

      WIND + BANE = INFEST/INFERNO (Dark gale forces from the netherworld strike the enemy, potentially sleeping them.)

      FIRE + BANE = DARK BLAZE/DARK FLAME (Evil fire swarms through the enemy, potentially powering them down.)

      ELEMENT X + ELEMENT X = ELEMENT X • 2

      Notice a pattern: Elements can be combined with each other to produce new things, but the products of the combinations will never become new elements.


      In a way, the Greek Classical Elements are an early form of chemistry: On the periodic table are at least 100 elements most of which can be recombined to get many different things

      E.G. iron + carbon = steel

      Copper + tin = bronze

      Copper + zinc = brass

      Hydrogen + oxygen = water etc.

      These new products come from already existing elements, therefore aren't basic therefore would not be considered new elements. I mean, in the context of chemistry, you would not consider steel, bronze, brass, water, plastic, magnesium sulfate as elements, would you? If one was being consistent with the rules of chemistry, no one would; they are products of already existing materials.

      Although it was ancient and early, the Greek Classical Elements were a model of chemistry and used many of the same principles, e.g. If it could be divided further, then it's not an element.

      In conclusion:

      3. The “Elemental Recomposition” page is a misnomer and is therefore misleading therefore said page name and description should be changed; the products are not new elements but the results of combining the characteristics of already existing elements to produce something which would otherwise not exist.

      Do you understand now?

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    •  

      3. The “Elemental Recomposition” page is a misnomer and is therefore misleading therefore said page name and description should be changed; the products are not new elements but the results of combining the characteristics of already existing elements to produce something which would otherwise not exist.

      Do you understand now?

      I already know what the page is about. That is what I meant when I said new elements. All Ive been trying to ask people is which of those combined elements would be able to work as a more enhanced version of the originals

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    • Zxankou14 wrote:
       

      3. The “Elemental Recomposition” page is a misnomer and is therefore misleading therefore said page name and description should be changed; the products are not new elements but the results of combining the characteristics of already existing elements to produce something which would otherwise not exist.

      Do you understand now?

      I already know what the page is about. That is what I meant when I said new elements. All Ive been trying to ask people is which of those combined elements would be able to work as a more enhanced version of the originals

      I feel sorry for you man. You just wanted a page where people contributed to the idea but instead got all these people blabbing on about scientific and historical explanations on a forum about nonexistent superpowers. Rip man Rip. 

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    • Welp, I feel sorry about you, but there are maaaaaany modern fictions, anime, comic books etc. that use scientific approach to superpowers. Not my fault.

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    • not bad i like it 

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    • i think you should just put in snow/ice because all the other ones are kinda non-sensical just my thought
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    • I like it, but you're missing one of the elements;



      HEART

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    • How is heart an element?

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    • its a captain planet joke, sorry

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    • Don't forget the fifth element.

      That element being Bruce Willis.

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    • MossCoveredKate wrote:
      I like it, but you're missing one of the elements;


      HEART

      "Heart!? Heart!? They get fire, wind and water, and I get fucking heart!? What a ripoff! Why can't I get any flashy powers? Heart? Are you kidding me!? What a fucking coup! I mean, you can't do anything with heart. What, you make people feel better? Who gives a shit!? I mean, this kid totally got ripped off."

      — The Nostalgia Critic on Ma-ti from Captain Planet and the Planeteers

      http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatKindOfLamePowerIsHeartAnyway

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    • " Metal + Water = Storm "

      that sounds more like mercury than storm

      would't water + wind make storm?

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    • CalimTheCrystalGem wrote:
      " Metal + Water = Storm "

      that sounds more like mercury than storm

      would't water + wind make storm?

      You should read the Wu Xing Manipulation page. One of the association for water is clouds and weather and an association of metal is electromagnetism. Im no scientist, but I thought weather was linked to the Earths magnetic field anyway

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    • Wouldn't that be Earth and Lightning, then?

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    • It would be nice if you guys shared what YOU think they should/could be lol.

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    • that's kind of what I was doing

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    • Nah, weather is produced by wind currents, changes in humidity, water condensation and air density.

      Water + Wind/Air is Storm. Stop mixing Lightning into it. Lightning is produced by storm only in quite specific conditions. Most storms can't produce lightnings.

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    • TheHadouCyberspaceWitch wrote:
      that's kind of what I was doing

      I mean if you guys gave your ideas of which combined element would serve as a stronger version of the origonal five. All I've been getting is people commenting on my idea of it, instead of sharing their own.

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    • TheHadouCyberspaceWitch wrote:
      I guess I will just link this again...

      what exactly is the point 

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    • Nevermind.

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    • TheHadouCyberspaceWitch wrote:
      Nevermind.

      ok then?

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    • Fire + Darkness = Darkfire

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    • A FANDOM user
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