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  • Imouto-tan
    Imouto-tan closed this thread because:
    Finally squared everything up and got to a peaceful compromise
    00:22, August 19, 2018

    Hey guys, I check this page a while back and it shows Captain America on Enhanced Condition page. What happened? If there is something that need to be proven, it must be told. I have no  rights, all rights belong to Marvel Comics. The Super-Soldier Serum enhanced Captain America's physical and mental abilities beyond than finest human athletes that ever competed. The sources below will show you readers that Captain America is able to pushed to enhanced/superhuman levels. The powers that Captain America have performed to be at enhanced/superhuman levels is his strength, speeddurabilityagility, reflexes, stamina, healing, senses, intelligence and longevityThis answer has clearly proven that his physical and mental has been enhanced to Super-Soldier levels as Dr. Abraham Erskine has stated in Captain America Comics Vol 1 1 about his enhanced condition being affected physically and mentally. 

    • Durability: Marvel Power grid has classified Captain America's durability to be "#3 which means enhanced". There is no evidence in the Official Handbooks that said his durability is Peak Human. If they have, please correct me. His durability has been proven enough that his durability title should say "Enhanced". For example, the source that desrcibes his impressive durability feat is Captain America: Living Legend Vol 1 2In the comic issue, after Captain America had jump out the plane that he self-destruct, he has been shown to use S.H.I.E.L.D. tech low open parachute that last a short time and withstand the impact on the ground from ten miles up with only little injury.  Some people may say that his durability feat is peak human, but if it is peak human, the limited to peak human durability is withstanding several stories that is hundreds of feet. If a human did the exact feat as Captain America had performed, with no doubt, the person will get killed.  If a person with Peak Human Durability like Cocan the Barbarian had did this dangerous feat, he may survive, but his bones will be broken and will have to go to the hospital. The enivronment that Captain America was located is very cold. Combine Captain America withstanding the impact fall and the cold temperatures, his durability are pushed in levels to be slightly superhuman.

    In conculsion, it is better to tell the admins from Marvel Database wiki to change some of Captain America's power titles to be "Enhanced". His enhanced condition can be pushed to superhuman levels when necessary.

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    • Hi Super-Soldier Man22. Thank you for giving me multiple sources that I need to know. Captain America's powers is peak human, but he can push his limits to superhuman levels. I really need the information to tell the admin, Kuopiofi. 

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    • Hi Super-Soldier Man22. Can you tell me the rest for Captain America's powers. The admin in this wiki said that you explained proof to tell some of Captain America's powers and not every. Can you tell me all of his powers that is from Marvel Database wiki?

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    • I will add one example for each Captain America's powers from Marvel Database wiki.

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    • I make a lot of changes for the general disccusion about Captain America (Steve Rogers). I hope this will be enough proof to give to the admins.

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    • Thank you again for creating his discussion, Super-Soldier Man22.

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    • Any change of finding more than one example for those? Check if you can find anything of the mental side, Enhanced Mind includes quite a few powers aside intelligence after all.

      To explain a bit, I personally don't care one bit either way on this, I simply want the Edit/undo of EC to stop. Not having the losing side of the argument complain constantly over it would be a plus. Thus the need to have proof to back it up.

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    • So Cap's able to push to low-level superhuman feats in times of duress ?
      So that means that he's a peak human except in times of [serious] duress...

      Cap is right on the borderline of what can be called superhuman (in the Marvel Universe) whilst still being human i.e. he hasn't stepped into superhuman territory (except in extreme cases like I mentioned above). There is literally no other human in the Marvel verse who is more peak human than Cap, the character is the literal epitome of human capabilities (in the Marvel Universe).

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    • In other words, adrenaline kicks him to Enhanced?

      How about this: keep him in Peak human and return to EC with note that it's threat based or however you want to phrase that? I just want to get this thing done already.

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    • Kuopiofi wrote: In other words, adrenaline kicks him to Enhanced?

      How about this: keep him in Peak human and return to EC with note that it's threat based or however you want to phrase that? I just want to get this thing done already.

      Well, in my opinion, that's the only way anyone can justify Cap having superhuman abilities. To be honest though, I feel like Peak Human Condition#Notes covers it well enough, but it's not me you've gotta convince unfortunately...

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    • Demotivator. Captain America sustain powers is peak human, but can pushed his limits to Enhanced/Superhuman levels. Have you review every deatil of Captain America's powers?

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    • Fightnightwinger wrote: Demotivator. Captain America sustain powers is peak human, but can pushed his limits to Enhanced/Superhuman levels. Have you review every deatil of Captain America's powers?

      Therefore even you agree that Cap has peak human abilities. Like I've mentioned many times before, Cap being able to push himself to low-level superhuman feats can be explained by:

      1. Peak Human Condition#Notes
      Due to the effects of an adrenaline rush
      2. Different writers
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    • Demotivator, he is enhanced. Right? Okay then, Captain America belongs in both Peak Human Condition and Enhanced Condition. I don't have no rights, all rights belong to Marvel Comics. The feats that the writers from Marvel has put, clearly proven his powers is between peak human and superhuman. Also, I found and add important feat for his Enhanced Intelligence and Longevity. 

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    • Make sure you review them.

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    • Fightnightwinger, go let the admin know about the feats he need for enhanced intelligence.

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    • Super-Soldier Man22 wrote: Demotivator, he is enhanced. Right? Okay then, Captain America belongs in both Peak Human Condition and Enhanced Condition. I don't have no rights, all rights belong to Marvel Comics. The feats that the writers from Marvel has put, clearly proven his powers is between peak human and superhuman. Also, I found and add important feat for his Enhanced Intelligence and Longevity. 

      Cap is "enhanced" as in his body and mind were augmented to their current condition by the effects of the SSS. Enhanced Condition isn't about whether a character received their powers artificially, it's about whether a character has a certain [superhuman] level of physical and mental ability.
      He can't be listed on both pages, it's gotta be one or the other; since he's not superhuman, Cap belongs in Peak Human Condition and Peak Human Condition alone.
      The writers just put what they believe to be the limit of human capability (in universe); Cap's always been a peak human with whatever perks they believe that entails.

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    • Okay. Super-Soldier Man22. Demotivator, it seems you have not look into the update Super-Soldier Mann22 has provided. The Enhanced Condition is characters who are physical and mental enhanced, no matter what degree. 

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    • Demotivator, I forgot something. Kuopiofi has wanted me to tell you that he want to hear your response because he is waiting for you. Thank you. 

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    • Fightnightwinger wrote: Okay. Super-Soldier Man22. Demotivator, it seems you have not look into the update Super-Soldier Mann22 has provided. The Enhanced Condition is characters who are physical and mental enhanced, no matter what degree. 

      Fightnightwinger, it seems you don't understand the Enhanced Condition power. Characters who have the Enhanced Condition are those with physical and mental capabilities above that of other members of their species. There is a reason why there are levels:

      • Peak Human Condition - peak human mental and physical capabilities.
      • Enhanced Condition - low-to-mid superhuman mental and physical capabilities.
      • Supernatural Condition - mid-to-high superhuman mental and physical capabilities.
      • Absolute Condition - ultimate physical and mental capabilities.

      Fightnightwinger wrote: Demotivator, I forgot something. Kuopiofi has wanted me to tell you that he want to hear your response because he is waiting for you. Thank you.

      My response to what...? 🤔🤔

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    • As long Captain America can pushed to low superhuman levels, he can be placed into the Enhanced Condition page. I strongly believe we need to delete the Note part of the effects of an adrenaline rush, becuase it is confusing. The Enhanced Condition has even stated Users may be augmented, but not to superhuman levels. 

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    • Fightnightwinger wrote: As long Captain America can pushed to low superhuman levels, he can be placed into the Enhanced Condition page. I strongly believe we need to delete the Note part of the effects of an adrenaline rush, becuase it is confusing.

      You understand that a decent amount of characters listed under Peak Human Condition are also capable of pushing their physical limits to low superhuman levels in a pinch. That still doesn't make them superhumans.
      You only want to delete the Notes part because it conflicts with your views; that's the only reason why it's "confusing" you.
      Adrenaline rushes generally serve to temporarily boost physical abilities in fictional media, thus why it is has been mentioned on the page.

      Fightnightwinger wrote: The Enhanced Condition has even stated Users may be augmented, but not to superhuman levels. 

      No, the page states "User's condition may be augmented, but not to supernatural levels".

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    • That is Enhanced Condition said. Peak Human Condition have stated that the users are "Near-Enhanced". Get it? "Near-Enhanced" . Captain America is permentally enhanced, there is no temporary enhanced. If you don't believe the feats about Captain America. That is your problem. Super-Soldier Man22 has given a point that bypass our sugesstion. You will say Batman should be in Enhanced Condition, which he never belongs. 

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    • Fightnightwinger wrote: That is Enhanced Condition said. Peak Human Condition have stated that the users are "Near-Enhanced". Get it? "Near-Enhanced" . Captain America is permentally enhanced, there is no temporary enhanced. If you don't believe the feats about Captain America. That is your problem. Super-Soldier Man22 has given a point that bypass our sugesstion. You will say Batman should be in Enhanced Condition, which he never belongs. 

      See, this is where the problem is. You're completely misunderstanding the page. I'm not talking about whether Cap was augmented artificially or not, I'm talking about whether Cap has peak human abilities or not. I can see that English isn't your native language from the way you spell, so whether your misinterpretations are down to that, I don't know.

      But let me try and explain it again:

      • The Peak Human Condition page describes beings who have peak human mental and physical capabilities.
      • The Enhanced Condition page describes beings who have low-to-mid superhuman mental and physical capabilities.
      • Captain America was given the SSS which permanently augmented him and permanently gave him peak human capabilities. Therefore, he possesses a Peak Human Condition.
      • Using Batman as an example, Bruce Wayne trained his body and mind until he attained a Peak Human Condition. Therefore, he possesses a Peak Human Condition. The only differences between Batman and Captain America is that Cap achieved his powers artificially and as a result he does not need to train to maintain his peak human status.
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    • Demotivator wrote:
      So Cap's able to push to low-level superhuman feats in times of duress ?
      So that means that he's a peak human except in times of [serious] duress...

      Cap is right on the borderline of what can be called superhuman (in the Marvel Universe) whilst still being human i.e. he hasn't stepped into superhuman territory (except in extreme cases like I mentioned above). There is literally no other human in the Marvel verse who is more peak human than Cap, the character is the literal epitome of human capabilities (in the Marvel Universe.)

      *You said this statement yourself. Captain America can pushed his "Peak Human" limits to low-level superhuman when necessary. It may said that for a reason, but it does not mean that he is Peak Human itself. Unlike Batman, Captain America is mentally enhanced and his physical body is enhanced as well. He should be in Peak Human and Enhanced Condtion page. He can rival with Deathstroke himself because they both are Super-Soldiers.

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    • How about this? How about we put Ultimate Captain America under Enhanced Condition and regular Cap under Peak Human. 

      Oh, and also Enhanced Condition isn't for Superhumans at all, or at least not entirely. If you read Supernatural Condition it actually has the levels of Superhuman ability listed on there. Which covers and debunks your whole "Enhanced Condition equals low-to-mid Superhuman" argument because EC isn't even considered Type 1 Superhuman.

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    • I agree that we need to stop argue about this. The similarites of Deathstroke and Captain America is they are both enhanced, physically and mentally. So what if one of them is Enhanced/Peak Human and the other is Superhuman/Enhanced. Can we make the agreement that Slade can be on the main image and Captain America be on the Users list?

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    • Thank you BraveHeart70. I was telling Demotivator, but he refuse to understand. I agree that Captain America belongs in the Enhanced Condition. How about you BraveHeart?

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    • BraveHeart70 wrote: How about this? How about we put Ultimate Captain America under Enhanced Condition and regular Cap under Peak Human. 

      I am absolutely fine with that BraveHeart. Ultimate Cap actually is undeniably superhuman.

      BraveHeart70 wrote: Oh, and also Enhanced Condition isn't for Superhumans at all, or at least not entirely. If you read Supernatural Condition it actually has the levels of Superhuman ability listed on there. Which covers and debunks your whole "Enhanced Condition equals low-to-mid Superhuman" argument because EC isn't even considered Type 1 Superhuman.

      Well fair enough, can't argue with that if it's already on the Supernatural Condition page. Though that then begs the question, what exactly is the power of Enhanced Condition ?
      If it literally just means something along the lines of "a character whose powers were derived from external means rather than training" then the entire page needs to be revamped. But if it's the level between Peak Human and Supernatural (which is what I believe it to be) then my argument stands.

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    • I added him back

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    • True, Demotivator. 

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    • You can add a image for Deathstroke in the main photo of Superhuman Condition or the gallery because after all, he is superhuman, and is more than having Enhanced Condition.

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    • @Fightnightwinger Yes, I do believe that Cap belongs on the EC page.

      It's being enhanced but not to superhuman levels, Demotivator. 

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    • Do you agree?

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    • I honestly don't know what this whole argument was even about, no one claimed that Captain America was superhuman, to begin with. Let alone argued it.

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    • Imouto-tan wrote: I added him back

      I'm not sure what Imouto was doing... they acted far too soon...

      BraveHeart70 wrote: @Fightnightwinger Yes, I do believe that Cap belongs on the EC page.

      It's being enhanced but not to superhuman levels, Demotivator. 

      In other words BraveHeart, EC is Peak Human Condition through external enhancements ? Have I understood you correctly there ?

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    • It is really about if Captain America is Enhanced physically and mentally or not.

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    • Yes, yep. Sure. 

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    • BraveHeart70 wrote: I honestly don't know what this whole argument was even about, no one claimed that Captain America was superhuman, to begin with. Let alone argued it.

      The confusion came from the fact that I was under the assumption EC = characters with mental/physical abilities above peak human levels. So I was arguing that Cap is a peak human not a superhuman.

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    • BraveHeart70 wrote: Yes, yep. Sure. 

      Well that settled that then.

      Although I must inform you all that the page now needs a hell of a lot of work and revamping to reflect this definition otherwise people will get confused. EC is no longer an advanced version of PHC but now rather a variation of PHC. The amount of pages that are going to need to be altered to reflect this...

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    • The fact is without my opinion, the Super-Soldier Serum has enhanced Captain America's physical and mental abilities superior to any finest human athletes.

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    • Enhanced Condition is exactly what it says on the can. As for its placement, it's above Peak Human Condition yet below Supernatural Condition. Kinda like how Full-Power Super Saiyan is above Super Saiyan, yet below SSJ2. So, it's fine as s. Besides, this is literally the first time anyone has been confused about the page that I'm aware of. 

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    • That is right, Fightnightwinger. I just update some of the sentence, so it make clear sense.

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    • I have a great idea. If y'all believe the users who are enhanced need to be in the Enhanced Condition page, say "Yes."

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    • BraveHeart70 wrote: Enhanced Condition is exactly what it says on the can. As for its placement, it's above Peak Human Condition yet below Supernatural Condition. Kinda like how Full-Power Super Saiyan is above Super Saiyan, yet below SSJ2. So, it's fine as s. Besides, this is literally the first time anyone has been confused about the page that I'm aware of. 

      That's because no-one ever questions anything on this wiki...

      Anyway, you just agreed that EC is supposedly just "Peak Human Condition via external enhancements". If that's true then it can't be above Peak Human Condition in terms of levels can it ?
      Even your DBZ example (which you've got slightly wrong) corroborates what I'm saying i.e. Super Saiyan is exactly the same as Full-Power Super Saiyan, except that in the latter, the user has fully mastered the transformation and can thus maintain it for longer periods of time.

      EC can't be above Peak Human Condition in levels if it's just a different version of it... and EC can't be a different version of Peak Human Condition if it's above it in levels... hence why I asked, what exactly is the power of Enhanced Condition ?

      Can you see my confusion now ?

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    • What have I come back to? Arguing about whether Captain America is peak human or enhanced when every piece of media I have seen from Marvel has always called Captain America the peak of human potential.

      Outlier feats in the enhanced range don’t really change that. I’m so confused here has Cap been retconned? Did I miss something?

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    • No. I say yes because we need to stop argue and agree with each other. It is annoying about us keep talking about Enhanced Condition, it is simply the characters who are enhanced physically and mentally belong in Enhanced Condition page. No questions ask. If you can't get that understanding, learn it right now. 

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    • Fightnightwinger, with all due respect can you just be quiet for a second and let me and BraveHeart discuss please, you just keep commenting random stuff.

      RoyalGuard-Elite wrote: What have I come back to? ... Did I miss something?

      Nahhh you ain't missed much RoyalGuard. Just a hell of a lot of confusion over a page and its capabilities...

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    • I don't know what you are talking about.

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    • There's not really much to discuss. As I don't see what's so confusing about the power of CA's placement on it. It's pretty clearly written out what the power is on the page itself. Also, about the Super Saiyan thing: SSJ < ASSJ < USSJ < FPSSJ. But I will admit that it was a bad analogy on my part. Also, I don't remember saying EC was just PH with external enhancements. 

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    • BraveHeart70 wrote: There's not really much to discuss. As I don't see what's so confusing about the power of CA's placement on it. It's pretty clearly written out what the power is on the page itself.

      Not gonna get into the DBZ thing (that's a whole different argument), but since you can't seem to understand my confusion, I'll lead the train of thought by asking the simple question:

      What is the power and capabilities of Enhanced Condition (including its level in regards to standard human, peak human and superhuman physical traits) in your words ?

      Especially since you're saying the Enhanced Condition is exactly what it says on the tin, it shouldn't be too difficult for you to define it.

      BraveHeart70 wrote: Also, I don't remember saying EC was just PH with external enhancements. 

      Screencap 1

      When I asked if EC was Peak Human Condition through external enhancements, you agreed did you not ?

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    • Oh, sorry. I was responding to Fightnightwinger. As for Enhanced Condition and my description of it, you're right; it shouldn't be hard to explain because it is exactly what it says on the tin. Therefore, it shouldn't be hard to comprehend it's abilities and/or placement in relation to Peak Human and Supernatural Condition either. I can't explain it any plainer than that. 

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    • BraveHeart70 wrote: Oh, sorry. I was responding to Fightnightwinger. As for Enhanced Condition and my description of it, you're right; it shouldn't be hard to explain because it is exactly what it says on the tin. Therefore, it shouldn't be hard to comprehend it's abilities and/or placement in relation to Peak Human and Supernatural Condition either. I can't explain it any plainer than that. 

      So basically you don't know either then hahaha... stay with me now and tell me where I've gone wrong:

      • Peak Human Condition = relates to all physical and mental abilities being at the very limit of human capability (without being superhuman)
      • Supernatural Condition = relates to all physical and mental abilities being above the limit of human capability i.e. superhuman (as per the page's description)
      • Absolute Condition = relates to all physical and mental abilities being (nigh-)unlimited and at the very best verse-wise
      • Enhanced Condition = relates to all physical and mental abilities being augmented to an unknown degree

      Just to hammer home the point, let me phrase this another way:

      Where exactly does Enhanced Condition place, when the other three condition powers cover all bases from human-level to absolute-level abilities ? What exactly does Enhanced Condition entail, when its definition is apparently so vague ?
      Do you see the issue yet...? Please tell me you can see the issue now...?


      Note: Don't say EC is in between PHC and SC, because that wouldn't make any sense. If EC is between PHC and SC, then that means I've been right all along (EC = low-to-mid superhuman) and thus the EC and SC pages would need to be updated to fit.

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    • I actually have a pretty clear understanding of EC. I just don't know how to explain it to you to where you'll understand. 

      Peak Human = Peak Human abilities

      Enhanced = Above Peak Human, but not Superhuman

      Supernatural = Superhuman

      Absolute = Ultimate physical abilities

      Everything you need to know is literally on the Supernatural Condition page under "Levels" 

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    • BraveHeart70 wrote: Enhanced = Above Peak Human, but not Superhuman

      Perfect, now I have your understanding. So tell me, how can a being be above peak human and somehow not classify as superhuman ? How does that make sense ?
      If it's above peak human i.e. the upper limit of what's considered "human", it is therefore superhuman, no ? You see the logic right ?

      There is no level "in between PH and SH" or "above PH, but below SH" because that makes no logical sense whatsoever.

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    • Okay now I see the problem here. Apparently Captain America had actually been on the enhanced page. So this is where all the confusion is coming from? If not I’m still lost.

      From what I can see this is just another symptom of this site. When you let error exist for too long people think the error is fact and then when change is made it is rebuked. Honestly I may be just as to blame because I most likely saw Captain America on the enhanced page and did nothing about it.

      Honestly I just don’t have it in me to go after every little mistake on this site. Definitely when this is the result. Constant debate when trying to fix something that should have been changed a while ago.

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    • Yup, that's where this is all stemmed from. One mistake has led to another problem being found, now I'm just in the process of solving it where possible.

      I'm going after one mistake at a time, where I can, when I can. Take a break from this wiki, then go back at it again.

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    • Okay. At least I understand what’s happening now.

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    • It's not my understanding of it. It's the Wiki's official stance. We can argue semantics all day, but that's how the Wikia staff and community has seen it for years. And it's not due to an error but to an understanding of a very simple concept: 

      "The user's physical and mental abilities are above natural members of their species in that verse, beyond what can be emulated via natural training and with little to no maintaining. This entails that they are faster, stronger, more intelligent and overall superior to fellow members of their species, without being obviously supernatural." 

      The user of this power is augmented beyond what can be trained for and does little to maintain it, but they're not superhuman. Batman has to constantly maintain his Peak Human abilities, but an Enhanced like Captain America doesn't. Captain America is labeled as a peak human but numerous feats prove otherwise which means it is little more than a label. 

      However, if you're only interested in the official line, then Marvel has stated at multiple times that he is "peak human," which means absolutely nothing in a real sense but apparently mean something to you.

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    • Can I just chime in and say that the level above Enhanced isn't Superhuman, but Supernatural? The way I see it is this:

      Peak Human Condition is obvious, the pinnicle of what your species (Humans) is naturally capable of.

      Enhanced Condition I see as possessing capabilities greater than what your species is naturally capable of, but not outlandish for what is capable by other species (even if the scales of size are different between species).

      Supernatural Condition I see as a condition that is beyond what nature can produce in of itself, usually at this point some other type of power is getting involved.

      Captain America is clearly Peak Human, maybe when adreniline and hysteric strength kick in he can breach into enhance territory. These are just my thoughts on the matter anyway.

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    • Isn't "Enhanced" superior to what is naturally achievable, by its very definition ?

      Captain America for example shows physical prowess far beyond that of the best real-life athletes (check out his moves in the various Avengers movies, its showcases his over-human performances a lot more clearly than in the comics). Another strong hint is the "Super Serum" that changed him from joke-level weakling to huge badass within hours, a miraculous military steroid explicitly created to permanently enhance human physiology beyond its natural limits.

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    • I mean sure, but to be honest, all these conditions page are based on their relativity to human standards.
      Under the strong assumption that the Peak Human and Enhanced Condition pages were made based around characters and information from the Marvel (and DC) universe (and from what I've been told, Captain America specifically) it stands to reason that we'd be basing it all around their style of thinking.

      So while I can understand your definition of EC, it only works when based relative to the fictional human standard (I assume you agree on this point ?). And so I ask a question, what condition page would you put these on ? (Click me) We have
      Ronan the Accuser
      Kree (Ronan the Accuser's species)
      Odin
      Asgardian (Odin's species)
      What condition pages would you put these four users ? Personally, it's an obvious decision: the Kree and Ronan would go on Enhanced Condition (well moreso Enhanced Body but that's a different argument) and the Asgardians and Odin would go on Supernatural Condition (well moreso Supernatural Body but that's a different argument).


      In the case of Cap, I am offended (lol) that you would use the MCU Cap to highlight your point. Much like Ultimate Cap, MCU Cap is undeniably superhuman (because of artistic license and the Hollywood Effect). I did mention above that I'm happy with those iterations of Cap being labelled superhuman, because they are, no question. But main universe Cap is where I disagree.


      Since I believe Marvel to be a driving factor in this discussion, I'd really like to suggest you all to take a look at Marvel's definition on what they consider "superhuman" (if you haven't already looked).

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    • So the movie Captain America has superior abilities to its comics counterpart ? Isn't is almost always the other around when it comes to superheroes, with movie adaptations being watered-down imitations of the original characters ? Thor and Scarlet Witch for example are heavily nerfed versions of the supernatural powerhouses they are in the comics, same for movie Hulk who even at its peak of rage can't seem to muster 10% of the original's might.

      So yeah, I had good reasons to believe the same logic applied to Captain America as well. But after checking his sheet on Marvel Database, I do remember a number of scenes where he displayed amazing feats of raw that its comic counterpart never did, so the power relatonship does seem reversed in his case, with MCU Captain being distinctly superhuman while the Earth 616 mainstream version is only peak human.

      Kind of a disappointment honestly ^ ^; Why call it "Super Serum" and make such a fuss about the character, when half of his teammates could squash him like a bug ? I guess because he represents the potential greatness of human beings in much the same way Batman does in DC, even though they are weak as newborn babes compared to most superhumans.

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    • Yeah, it's all cos of the Hollywood Effect (I don't even know if that's the term for it... fuck it, I'm going with it). If the character is too powerful to portray (especially in group movies) then they get nerfed accordingly. If the character is too weak or their power isn't 'flashy' or 'impressive' enough, they get upgraded. So world-breakers like Thor, Scarlet Witch, Doctor Strange and Hulk (who could all put up more than a decent fight against Thanos by themselves, had to get nerfed) while on the flip-side, America's golden boy (who pales in comparison to almost everyone) had to get bumped up so he wouldn't seem redundant.

      But yeah, need to sort out where EC fits in these condition pages hehe.

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    • Peak Human Condition is for characters that are basically Olympic level athletes.

      Enhanced Condition is for characters that are far superior to even the greatest Olympic athletes and all members of their species.

      Supernatural Condition is for characters even stronger that those with enhanced condition but not as strong as someone with Absolute/Unlimited condition prowess.

      I do agree that we need to sort out some of these characters pronto.

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    • So Earth 616 Captain America has actually Peak Human Condition, artficially achieved within a few hours via the Super Serum, while Batman also has Peak Human Condition but gradually built through years of constant hardass training.

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    • In short yes

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    • Imouto-tan wrote:
      Peak Human Condition is for characters that are basically Olympic level athletes.

      Enhanced Condition is for characters that are far superior to even the greatest Olympic athletes and all members of their species.

      Supernatural Condition is for characters even stronger that those with enhanced condition but not as strong as someone with Absolute/Unlimited condition prowess.

      I do agree that we need to sort out some of these characters pronto.

      DYBAD and everybody, Imouto-tan is right about this discussion. Captain America was enhanced to the very peak of human potential physically and mentally. I asked the admin from Marvel Database wiki who is a expert for Captain America, and she said the same thing. She also was saying all of his body including mental was enhanced. Batman, he trained his body to be at natural peak human, and nothing else. What's the point of keep arguing something that is already proven?

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    • I somewhat disagree with your definition of Peak Human Condition Imouto. It's opinionated af, I know, but I don't see Olympic-level athletes as "peak" humans; sure they're the best we see (in reality anyway) but there usually seems to be another human tier who are better in fiction. I would again suggest using Marvel's page on the subject as a basis.
      Even then, the capabilities of the term "peak human" will vary wildly between different verses. For example, the greatest humans of the Dragon Ball and One Piece universes are far more powerful than the greatest humans of say the Marvel, Supernatural or Shingeki no Kyojin universes.
      Thus begs questions like, "Where would a character like Krillin fit ?". He's obviously far stronger than the average human (supernaturally so), but he can also be considered a peak human (in his verse), on top of it all being down to (Charles Atlas) training.


      Yeah DYBAD, that's exactly right. The manner in which a character's peak human/superhuman/supernatural condition is achieved shouldn't really matter; what should matter is whether the character in question is actually known for having a peak human/superhuman/supernatural condition.

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    • The admin from Marvel wiki said Captain America is enhanced. How about Batman? Is he enhanced? No.

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    • Giphy.gif

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    • Tony Stark? WOWWW. He look surpised and happy. Yeah, he is cool and is from Marvel. Unfortunately, this discussion is NOT about Iron Man/Tony Stark, it's about Captain America.

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    • CAPSMILE
      Here is a good smile from Steve Grant Rogers/Captain America (Marvel Comics).

      The picture above which is Tony Stark/Iron Man is jealous because of Steve's good looks and Tony pretends to not care.

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    • "Enhanced" in this context refers to a level (beyond human limits), not a method (artificial).

      Captain Amerian possesses Peak Human Condition that was artificially induced via Super Serum.

      So "enhanced" in terms of method used, but "peak human" in terms of results achieved.

      Makes sense when you think about it. If Captain's condition was beyond human, he would no longer represents the pinacle of human potential with all the inspiring hype that goes along, he would just be another superhuman among many others - a very low level one with only basic Enhanced Condition.

      I don't think Stark would be jealous much, seeing he has 20 times more women pinning after him XD

      The role model is admired, but it's the "genius billionaire playboy philanthropist" that is lusted after ^ ^

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    • DYBAD wrote: "Enhanced" in this context refers to a level (beyond human limits), not a method (artificial).

      Captain Amerian possesses Peak Human Condition that was artificially induced via Super Serum.

      So "enhanced" in terms of method used, but "peak human" in terms of results achieved.

      Makes sense when you think about it. If Captain's condition was beyond human, he would no longer represents the pinacle of human potential with all the inspiring hype that goes along, he would just be another superhuman among many others - a very low level one with only basic Enhanced Condition.

      I've been trying to get this point across to Fightnightwinger for ages... maybe since it came out of your mouth, it might get through...

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    • You can debate about Captain America's powers all you want, but it won't change anything. For those who hate Captain America like Demotivator....GET OVER IT.  All the facts are at the very top of this page, and if you can't see the TRUTH... THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM .

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    • Giphy2.gif
      But I don't hate Cap... so I'm not sure where that came from...
      Also, I'm not the only person who is saying what I've said... even your response with what the Marvel admin told you agrees with what we're saying...

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    • If you don't hate Captain America. I will say it again, if you don't hate Captain America, get the understanding of the facts that is at the very top of his page. Unlike Batman, Captain America is enhanced peak human who don't need to train himself to be constant peak human. He is in the Enhanced Condition because he is enhanced both physically and mentally.

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    • Captain is a peak human who doesn't require training to stay in shape.

      It's still just peak human though. Enhanced condition is for superhumans.

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    • DYBAD. Do you hate Captain America?

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    • Why would I ? He's an admirable person, if a tad too moralizing and narrow-minded for my taste ^ ^

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    • Like I said before: just put Ultimate Cap on Enhanced, and 616 Cap on Peak Human. Even though Enhanced ranks below even low-level Superhumans, I digress.

      This method can be used to ensure everyone is happy and this pointless discussion can come to a close. 

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    • Every verse has their own standards for peak human, but realistically speaking Olympic level if not a bit further than Olympic levels athletics seems reasonable enough for the wiki's definition of Peak Human.

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    • If anything, humans from places like Dragon Ball and One Piece are superhuman due to their feats even though they are classified as the toughest humans alive. Moving at the speed of light and being able to hurt a being that can tank planets blowing up on them and entire islands sinking clearly is superhuman meaning that these characters are superhuman.

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    • Also, it seems like everyone is arguing for their own definition of peak human to be applied universally. Even though, as Imouto said, every verse has their own version of Peak human.

      "Enhanced" in the terms of how the Wiki defines it is when "User's condition may be augmented, but not to supernatural levels."

      So, using that logic Captain America fits. And if you find 616 Cap to be (for whatever reason) totally unacceptable for this definition then just use Ultimate Cap instead. Even though judging by feats the former more than qualifies for Enhanced Condition. 

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    • Captain America's powers feats is not "former". The feats are proven enhanced. That is all.

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    • Demotivator. Remove the infant girl off this page. You are being close to "Corny".

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    • When I said "the former" I was referring to the first subject I mentioned in regards to who qualified for Enhanced Condition, that being 616 Cap. 

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    • I mean, I was already in agreement with Imouto's words (I said the exact same thing beforehand "the capabilities of the term "peak human" will vary wildly between different verses")... hence why I asked the question... or are you just ignoring everything I say ?

      I mean, you're acting like whatever was written on the wiki years ago will always be right for the rest of eternity... definitions on powers have changed and been re-clarified over the years... hence why I'm trying to get EC's level definition properly clarified now.
      The wiki's definition "User's condition may be augmented, but not to supernatural levels" implies (especially by your assertions) that characters who have trained themselves to a low-level superhuman standard [and beyond] do not qualify simply because they did it the natural way rather than being artificially augmented. Just saying.

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    • Enhanced is for naturally impossible feats, which is precisely why users are called "enchanced".

      Peak if for feats humans can naturally achieve, although it takes a great body and tons of training.

      The line between peak and low-level enhanced can get pretty blurry though, and I believe that's what the whole discussion ultimately boils down to.

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    • Pretty much.

      Out of curiosity, what's everyone's views on the upper limit of Enhanced ? Like, where does Enhanced stop and Supernatural begin ?

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    • Okay. Now I understand your point of wiew. You been agreeing with me, the admins, and other people who talks about Captain America's Enhanced Physiology the whole time. If you read this message, I want to say respectfully, thank you. :)

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    • I'm not saying that the way the Wikia defines it is perfect, I'm just saying that trying to impose your own view onto something I don't think anyone before you have been "confused" about is essentially saying "I like my definition better than this one, so use mine." It doesn't seem to me that you're trying to clarify anything, hence this whole debacle, but instead are trying to assert that your viewpoint of the power is the only one that is correct, Demotivator. 

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    • When people seem to be giving different definitions for the same power, it tends to get confusing...
      I've heard EC is for characters who are just "enhanced" (yes, just a vague "enhanced").
      I've heard EC is for peak human characters who don't need to train to maintain their condition.
      I've heard EC is for characters between peak human and superhuman condition.
      I've heard EC is for (low-level) superhuman characters (i.e. characters who can do things not naturally possible for humans).
      Then the obvious "User's condition may be augmented, but not to supernatural levels" which is a vague description...
      As well as the other definitions I can't remember off the top of my head...
      So which one is the correct answer ??

      Before the Cap debacle, my honest understanding was that Enhanced Condition was for characters with low-to-mid level superhuman mental and physical abilities (with Peak Human Condition for peak human abilities and Supernatural Condition for mid-to-high level superhuman abilities). Hence why I was pushing for 616 Cap to be removed, because he isn't stated to have superhuman physical or mental abilities; as such, I didn't think he fit the description of the power. So forgive me if what I once thought was the definition of EC is apparently wrong, which is why I'm pushing for a solid definitive answer now.

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    • The answer is the admins' official decision in this Superpower Wiki.

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    • They already made their decision.

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    • Admins, please close this thread because this debate is endless.

      Thank you, Admins 

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    • Demotivator wrote:
      Before the Cap debacle, my honest understanding was that Enhanced Condition was for characters with low-to-mid level superhuman mental and physical abilities (with Peak Human Condition for peak human abilities and Supernatural Condition for mid-to-high level superhuman abilities).

      Seems spot-on to me.

      Comparison based on the last Deathstroke issue : Batman is Peak Human (most iconic example) and Deathstroke is Enhanced (Batman literally called him that : "enhanced strength, enhanced speed, rapid healing" plus enchanced brain activity, senses, agility, durability, etc. full list can be found here).

      Deathstroke is the perfect example of characters who look Peak Human but is actually Enhanced : he can't benchpress a motor-cycle or jump to a first floor window or run at traffic speed, but his overall capabilities are distinctly beyond human level - and the only reason Batman manages to hold his own instead of being trashed is because he has the best plot armor in DC.

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    • DYBAD wrote: Seems spot-on to me.

      Well, there appears to be users who disagree with this notion... T-T

      Also, the levels section on the Supernatural Condition page does not help at all lel... it was probably a big factor in the whole confusion over EC's definition.

      Anyway, if this is the definition that fits (cos seriously, I don't know anymore), the EC and SC pages are going to need to be re-clarified (not by much tbf) to prevent any further misunderstandings.

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    • There will always be disagreements, so it shouldn't be too much of a concern.

      Yeah, some upating is definitely needed. While the basic distinction is fairly clear and simple, the pages themselves don't quite live up to it, leading to recurring confusions and misunderstandings.

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    • Okay, then how about something like this for the condition levels:

      • Peak Human Condition - User is at the highest mental and physical conditioning that a human can reach.
      • Enhanced Condition - User's mental and physical condition is beyond the human limits of their universe, but not to high superhuman levels.
        • Type I (Example: Black Panther): An extremely great mind, strong enough to lift over a ton and bend metal, fast enough to move at/beyond the high-way speed limit, durable enough to withstand being thrown off tall buildings.
        • Type II (Example: Spider-Man): One of the greatest minds in their world, strong enough to lift automobiles and punch through steel, fast enough to move at subsonic speeds, agile enough to leap over small buildings and dodge supersonic attacks, durable enough to withstand bullets, grenades and low-to-medium explosives.
      • Supernatural Condition - User's mental and physical condition is blatantly more powerful than other people of their universe, reaching into high superhuman territory.
        • Type I (Example: Power Man): Easily one of the greatest minds in their world, strong enough to lift construction vehicles and destroy thick steel, fast enough to easily move at supersonic speeds, durable enough to withstand most explosions.
        • Type II (Example: Captain Marvel): Arguably the greatest mind in their world, strong enough to lift large aircrafts and destroy the toughest metals, fast enough to easily move at hypersonic speeds (and beyond), durable enough to take powerful explosions.
        • Type III (Example: Superman): Near an Absolute Condition. Arguably the greatest mind in their verse, strong enough to move skyscrapers or even planets with incalculable strength, fast enough to move at (or beyond) light-speed, and invulnerable to virtually all physical harm.
      • Absolute Condition - The ultimate type, the user has no limits to their mental and physical capabilities.
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    • Fightnightwinger wrote:
      DYBAD. Do you hate Captain America?

      Also, no one is making their claims out of any hatred or lack thereof towards Captain America. We're all just presenting our cases for why he should or should not be on Enhanced Condition. XD

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    • Things tend to get pretty emotional when our favs are on the line ^ ^

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    • think Ultimate and MCU Cap should be placed under EC and 616 Cap under PC. I say this becuase both Ultimate and MCU Cap have done things that are above peak human. 

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    • Everyone, I check on Captain America's page and review his Super-Soldier Serum Condition, and it officially stated "The Super-Soldier Serum also heightened his abilities beyond the limits to even the finest human athletes. Dr. Abaraham Erskine has stated Rogers' enhanced condition is "second to none" to non-enhanced humans." If you don't believe me, go to Rogers' Super-Soldier Serum condition, and it will tell you without question.  If you don't know the definition for "second to none", it means incomparable, unequaled, and unsurpassable.  The meaning of the three words is not to be close to, nor equal, and not go beyond. That is our answer that we been looking for the whole time, because the 616 Captain America's enhanced condition is beyond the limits to even finest human athletes (peak humans). One of the creators of 616 Captain America, who is Jack Kibry and Stan Lee who is not the creator for Cap, but supported the comic issue, Tales of Suspense Vol 1 63, they work hard to make one of the best comic issues about the Super-Soldier Serum that enhanced 616 Captain America. The source for Rogers' enhanced condition is Tales of Suspense Vol 1 63. I have to add it in this discussion.

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    • Fightnightwinger wrote:
      Everyone, I check on Captain America's page and review his Super-Soldier Serum Condition, and it officially stated "The Super-Soldier Serum also heightened his abilities beyond the limits to even the finest human athletes. Dr. Abaraham Erskine has stated Rogers' enhanced condition is "second to none" to non-enhanced humans." If you don't believe me, go to Rogers' Super-Soldier Serum condition, and it will tell you without question.  If you don't know the definition for "second to none", it means incomparable, unequaled, and unsurpassable.  The meaning of the three words is not to be close to, nor equal, and not go beyond. That is our answer that we been looking for the whole time, because the 616 Captain America's enhanced condition is beyond the limits to even finest human athletes (peak humans). One of the creators of 616 Captain America, who is Jack Kibry and Stan Lee who is not the creator for Cap, but supported the comic issue, Tales of Suspense Vol 1 63, they work hard to make one of the best comic issues about the Super-Soldier Serum that enhanced 616 Captain America. The source for Rogers' enhanced condition is Tales of Suspense Vol 1 63. I have to add it in this discussion.

      I strongly believe the mainstream Captain America should be placed under EC because his enhanced condition is beyond the limits to even non-enhanced peak humans. 

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    •  

      I was wondering why he didn't look like an old man after his life in Dimesion Z.

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    • The reason why he did not age because the Super-Soldier Serum prevent Rogers from aging.

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    • To end this discussion. I say Yes, 616 Captain America need to be place in EC.

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    • I Concur.

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    • I agree. 

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    • Didn't the Super Serum bring 616 Captain at the peak of human condition, rather than above ?

      Do we have feats that distinctly go above it, like the motorcycle-kicking movie Captain ?

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    • Fightnightwinger wrote:
      Everyone, I check on Captain America's page and review his Super-Soldier Serum Condition, and it officially stated "The Super-Soldier Serum also heightened his abilities beyond the limits to even the finest human athletes. Dr. Abaraham Erskine has stated Rogers' enhanced condition is "second to none" to non-enhanced humans." If you don't believe me, go to Rogers' Super-Soldier Serum condition, and it will tell you without question.  If you don't know the definition for "second to none", it means incomparable, unequaled, and unsurpassable.  The meaning of the three words is not to be close to, nor equal, and not go beyond. That is our answer that we been looking for the whole time, because the 616 Captain America's enhanced condition is beyond the limits to even finest human athletes (peak humans). One of the creators of 616 Captain America, who is Jack Kibry and Stan Lee who is not the creator for Cap, but supported the comic issue, Tales of Suspense Vol 1 63, they work hard to make one of the best comic issues about the Super-Soldier Serum that enhanced 616 Captain America. The source for Rogers' enhanced condition is Tales of Suspense Vol 1 63. I have to add it in this discussion.

      The 1st answer to the question you first asked, DYBAD is yes, but according to above the quotation. It will tell you the answer to why the 616 Captain America need to be placed in both under PC and EC.

      The 2nd answer to the other question you asked is yes, look at the very top of the message sources that Super-Soldier Man22 have c;early explained.

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    • So Enhanced Condition in a way that is virtually undistinguishable from Peak Human Condition ?

      Kind of dedeats the purpose of dissociating the two, doesn't it ?

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    • I'd thought we'd all finished discussing on this thread 10 days ago... how wrong I was...

      You need to remember that the laws of reality tend to work [a little] differently in fiction; the Marvel verse is no different. So what is clearly superhuman in the real world may not be so in a comic book.

      If the vast majority of 616-Marvel writers are calling Cap a Peak Human while still drawing him performing these "superhuman" feats, then it all comes down to a little thing called "Artistic License". As long as it doesn't break the reader's Willing Suspension of Disbelief, it's all good.

      But yeah, there's no point in having the two pages if they basically function on the same (if not similar) levels.

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    • Death horseman94
      Death horseman94 removed this reply because:
      ...
      11:46, August 19, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • The real world is the only standard we have to go by when scaling anything in fiction, unless you know if some other standard that we could use.

      Also, DYBAD here are some feats form 616 Cap that may outshine movie Cap.https://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_America_(Marvel_Comics)

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    • If Earth 616 Captain America's "Enhanced" Condition is so low level that it is almost undistinguishable from Peak Human, then he ultimately belongs to the second category rather than the first.

      Attack Potency: Multi-City Block level

      Speed: At least Hypersonic+

      Striking Strength: Multi-City Block Class

      Powers and Abilities: Precognition, Genius Intelligence (LOL), Telepathy; Magic-based Mind Control, Empathic Manipulation, Illusions and Radiation

      Yeah right ^ ^;

      No idea why anyone take VS Battles seriously, it is choke full of ludicrous exaggerations.

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    • But most of the information there comes from the comics, the Official Marvel website and Marvel wikia. So most of it has to be true.

      Now go get some rest please

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    • I've linked it many a time in this very thread BraveHeart (you've definitely ignored the majority of what I've said), Marvel has it's own "power classification system" scale: Superhumans.

      Also, like I said on the Supernatural Speed page, the fact that you're using the VsBattle Wiki over the Marvel Wiki is laughable... come on now, Cap running beyond the speed of sound ? Cap being able to devastate multiple cities with his physical assaults ? You can't seriously tell me you believe all of that ?

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    • If you can dodge a point blank gunshot from a sniper rifle that is superhuman by the wikia's standards and if you can hurt beings like Thanos and Hulk with your fist that is also very superhuman.

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    • It's called Artistic License Imouto. Funnily enough, on the VsBattle Wiki itself it has a page called, "Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics" which has this (among other things) to say:

      Click to show

      "Said writers naturally tend to have highly differing opinions and interpretations, which is reflected in their stories. Quite often internal story logic regarding relative power levels is ignored, and personal favouritism (along with plot convenience) decides the outcome of confrontations. While this is done to avoid making outcomes too predictable, the results are completely inconsistent, and most importantly, the enormous contradictions in continuities, power levels, and comparative hierarchies between the many different writers and editors over the decades results in a massive amount of confusion.

      A few examples include that the Hulk has been beaten by Captain America, or an ordinary snake, and been severely injured by regular gorillas, or an everyday stop sign, despite that he caused an earthquake across an infinite number of planets, or had his power measured as infinite by the Beyonder, in other stories; Thor being rendered unconscious by an ordinary handgun, but also preventing the destruction of 1/5th of the universe; Gambit defeating Gladiator; Black Panther placing the Silver Surfer in an inescapable grip; Iceman defeating Oblivion; Dormammu beating Multi-Eternity in one story, only to be manhandled by Cyclops, or Frankenstein's Monster in other stories; or the Beyonders killing the Living Tribunal and all of Marvel's abstract entities, only to be killed in turn by Doctor Doom."

      They even mention, and this tickles me quite a bit because it corroborates a lot of what I've been saying, "according to Stan Lee, whoever wins in a fight simply depends on whoever the current writer likes best, or wants to win". In other words, Cap is as strong as the story needs him to be. The only constant is that Cap is classified as a Peak Human (the very best of humanity), regardless of whether he performs "superhuman" feats or not.

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    • I strongly think that 616 Captain America should be placed under EC and PC, I say this because the 616 Captain America's condition has been officially proven that his mind and body is enhanced to beyond the limits to even the finest human athletes. In Tales of Suspense Vol 1 63, Here a comic scene in Tales of Suspense Vol 1 63, Dr. Abaraham Erskine, a creator of Super-Soldier Serum has officially stated Rogers' enhanced abilities.

      Again, the definition of "second to none" means incomparable, unequal, and unsurpassable. In other words, it is impossible for non-enhanced humans even if they pushed their physical and mental to peak human, they cannot to be close to, nor equal, and not even surpass the levels of 616 Captain America's enhanced condition.

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    • Fair enough Demotivator I see your point.

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    • For those who believe 616 Captain America should be place under EC and PH, and Ultimate Captain America and MCU Captain America be place under EC and Supernatural Condition say "I agree."

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    • Um, admin Imouto-tan. I'm Fightnightwinger. That seems like a yes. I agree 616 Captain America should be place under EC and Ph, and Ultimate Captain America and MCU Captain America be place under EC and Supernatural Condition.

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    • Here is a better planing for all of us. The Ultimate, MCU, and 616 Captain America will be place in Enhanced Condition. I have a question. Why is Black Panther is listed in EC if Marvel wiki said he is peak human? Look at Black Panther's powers.

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    • What that demotivator is saying is so stupid. How is Cap 616 not enhanced and the ulimate verson of Captian sucks, he can not even doge a bullet. Plus, he not that smart he is always is listing to the goverment and does every thing that the goverment says bad or good. Also, the original Captian America has way more fighting skills. If you ask someone if the ulimate verson is good they would just say no.

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    • Aymon300 wrote:
      What that demotivator is saying is so stupid. How is Cap 616 not enhanced and the ulimate verson of Captian sucks, he can not even doge a bullet. Plus, he not that smart he is always is listing to the goverment and does every thing that the goverment says bad or good. Also, the original Captian America has way more fighting skills. If you ask someone if the ulimate verson is good they would just say no.

      Following orders does not mean someone is dumb oe smart.

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    • DYBAD wrote:
      If Earth 616 Captain America's "Enhanced" Condition is so low level that it is almost undistinguishable from Peak Human, then he ultimately belongs to the second category rather than the first.

      Attack Potency: Multi-City Block level

      Speed: At least Hypersonic+

      Striking Strength: Multi-City Block Class

      Powers and Abilities: Precognition, Genius Intelligence (LOL), Telepathy; Magic-based Mind Control, Empathic Manipulation, Illusions and Radiation

      Yeah right ^ ^;

      No idea why anyone take VS Battles seriously, it is choke full of ludicrous exaggerations.

      Using VS Battles as a place for character info, you have to swallow a whole spoon of salt. I think they how they establish power levels is usually on how they do against an enemy. Such as if one character, for example Geralt, were to punch someone on the class of superman and do a little damage to him, his striking strength would be the equivalent to whatever his durability is on VS Battles.

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    • Fightnightwinger wrote:
      Here is a better planing for all of us. The Ultimate, MCU, and 616 Captain America will be place in Enhanced Condition. I have a question. Why is Black Panther is listed in EC if Marvel wiki said he is peak human? Look at Black Panther's powers.

      It says it right on his page that it's near superhuman "T'Challa's natural strength, speed, agility, durability, healing, stamina, and reflexes have been augmented to near superhuman by the sacred heart-shaped herb found". But I agree, if Black Panther is peak human, than he should be taken of EC

      Clearly it's not better planning for all of us if it suites your agenda

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    • So after taking a look on the Marvel Database it seems like Ultimate Cap'n Murica has a 4 in the strength category but in all other aspects has the same stats as both the 616 and the Cinematic Universe versions of Cap'n Murica. But on the page it labels Ultimate's speed, durability, intelligence as superhuman despite them all having a three in those categories. So I am just going to put him down with various incarnations next to his name to appease all and finally close this thread.

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    • So your saying you going to put 616 Captain America in EC? If so, thank you very much. I am finish with this discussion.

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    • No I am not saying that, I am saying that I am putting them all on the page due to the inconsitancy of the Marvel Database with the stats provided especially with them sharing the same stat outside of strength.

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    • That is fine with all of us. Oh beofre you close this thread, add the 616 Captain America in the gallery too, Imoto-tan. Thank you.  The file should be Captain America Vol 7 15 Textless.jpg

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    • Also Imouto-tan, delete the Heart-Shaped Herb on Known Objects for EC. Replace the image of Ultimate Cap with the 616 Captain America because he is the first Super-Soldier before any alternate versions exist.

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    • Imouto-tan. In EC Gallery, replace the Ultimate Cap and add the original Captain America. 

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    • No

      It is fine as is

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    • Okay. When you make changes on EC for Cap instead of being individual atlernate Cap, you put all of the versions of Captain America. Right?

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    • Sort of yes

      Closing the thread now that we have squared everything

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