I mean, We are able to remove this from the wiki. I believe this wiki should try and remain as honest as possible and should be a go to source when looking for answers. Having Zeno there makes people think Zeno is omnipotent when he isn't.
ArcOfficial wrote: I mean, We are able to remove this from the wiki. I believe this wiki should try and remain as honest as possible and should be a go to source when looking for answers. Having Zeno there makes people think Zeno is omnipotent when he isn't.
yeah but i fear that removing him from the list would give me a warning.
Well, it is heavily implied that the reason why Zeno was able to erase someone who has been granted immortality by super shenron is because his own power exceeds that of Super shenron. It is also said multiple times, that the only being with power more than zeno is Tori Bot, the author avatar, so, yeah we give him the benefit of doubt.
Still not enough for nonexistence, it is literal omnipotent erasure, zeno only has the core ability, erasure, he never erased anything other that the physical and souls, having a good erasure hardly grants ultimate erasure, much less nonexistence.
Dude, regeneration isn't necessary for Absolute Immortality. The page states that the user cann simply be immune to all harm which infinite zamasu was as it was the invincible soul of merged zamasu. And immunity to diseases? You are joking right? Tell me what kind of diseases can infect an invincible soul?
And yes being more powerful than super shenron does indeed qualify as Nonexistence. Super Shenron has Absolute wish which is an expression of Omnipotence and zeno's "erase" ability surpasses that, automatically making him a user of Nonexistence.
This seems like the perfect time for me to address a misconception. Absolute and/or omnipotent abilities have levels of their own. Just because the power is absolute does not make it actually absolute, if you get what i'm saying. There are basically like 1000 nigh omnipotent users of omnipotent powers; some omnipotent powers don't even have omnipotent beings listed. So shenron having 'absolute' wish is not a valid reason, and may not even be true because you told me that zeno 'reduced'his erasure ability to allow shenron to restore the erased universes, in which case your point doesn't make sense. Also i'm not sure but i THINK you were amongst those fighting to have zeno removed from the ultipotence page, so its kinda hypocritical that you are fighting for him to stay a user of a TRULY omnipotent power.
Nonexistence is THE strongest omnipotent ability listed on this wikia, second only to Omnipotence. It's effects cannot be undone even by absolute wish if used at it's full power. In reality, there is no actual user of this power because it's just that OP. We just give the current known users, the benefit of doubt. Sure, they have have godly erasure abilities but none of them have displayed even half of the things listed in the capabilities. The only two being that actually come close are the Decreator and the Oblivion. To understand the power more: Imagine the Abrahamic God concentrated and turned his Omnipotence into a single ability to erase all existence, then you'll get what Nonexistence is: 100% Omnipotence, concentrated in a single ability to erase all existence
Super Shenron is till date the best known user of absolute wish as it has actually been stated by the author and zeno himself to be able to grant all wishes and has feats to back it up as he restored countless universes back to existence effortlessly. But once again, Absolute wish is no match for Nonexistence, so obviously, super shenron cannot restore something that zeno erased using his full power.
I was fighting for zeno to be removed from Ultipotence because his power wasn't Ultipotence but Nonexistence. Nonexistence is "negative Omnipotence" and is completely subtractive in nature, it cannot create anything even indirectly. So, zeno can't have ultipotence. In fact none of the users listed have any godly manipulation techniques.
But, shouldn't a character with Nonexistence but without Omniscience technically be Ultipotent? Since Nonexistence its just a different way to perform Omnipotence, it should be that way, similar how its described in the Almighty Magic page (that character isn't necessary omniscient).
I also take the moment to say that Nemesis (from the user), despite Kuo telling me that his ability qualify as NE, its still far inferior to the "god tiers" (ironically not gods), to the point that WoG stated that it may or not defeat the combat faux (something like incarnation) of other user listened in the page.
What does ultipotence mean? INFINITE POWER. Creating or whatever, lets forget about that. If you're saying zeno can erase anything to on an omnipotent scale, you're automatically calling him an ultipotent being because to do something like that you need INFINITE POWER. Bringing you back to your point about shenron, i never said he is not a user, but if zeno really had NE shenron could not have restored the universes. And since there is no contextual or indirect evidence supporting your point that he was 'holding back' then it is merely an assumption that cannot and should not qualify as a fact.
On a seperate note, NE is not the strongest OP ability. It is simply the only one that does not possess varying degrees of power. OP powers are all equal in power.
Nope, Ultipotence means being able to do everything with the exception of gaining or becoming Omniscience. Anyone who read the capabilities will know that. NE is purely subtractive ability, it cannot create anything and it can only manipulate something indirectly. I did explain that there is a thoroughness aspect to NE meaning you can determine how permanent and irreversible the erasure is and whether the erasure is limited to the present or does it extend to the past.
And Yes, OP powers aren't equal, some are strong and some are weak. NE can defeat Omnilock effortlessly, and pretty much every other OP power has Omnilock as it's limitation. So,yeah NE is the second strongest OP power, a position that it shares with Absolute Change and Ultipotence.
I think Morningstar refer ro omnipotent abilities as vaeiations of omnipotence, not as they are categorized. Omnilock is not a omnipotent ability in tye sense its another form of perform omnipotence, just a subpower, so it can be defeated by any variation/form of omnipotence (plus their standard weaknesses); so theorically, powers like Nonexistence, Meta-Existence, Absolute Change, Author Authority, Metapotence, etc. are equally powerful as they are omnipotence through other means.
As for the definition of ultipotence, maybe you should check again. According to the page it is:The ability to possess ultimate/endless raw power. Power-only version of Omnipotence.
Yes you are right about the thoroughness aspect. However that is not a good enough reason for zeno to qualify because as of yet, according to the dragonball wiki, the strongest being in dragonball is yet to be confirmed.