So many of u may be aware that the user Nekron2 has changed Absolute Immortality to a suped up version of itself on steroids. The new Absolute Immortality has the stipulation that only Omnipotent beings are able to kill its users. Everything else will fail. This in of itself is not the problem. While I admit I feel this was a needless wank of AI and think it was fine before it’s still something that fits and makes sense for the site.
The problem that I was trying to get at on the AI page before Nekron2 twisted the argument about something else is that while it’s okay to take an absolute power up to this level it is not okay and is logically inaccurate to say said absolute power is greater than another absolute power which is also what Nekron has done.
Let me explain, Absolute life which is what AI grants has a clear and perfect polar opposite which would be Absolute Death. I’ll admit looking into this I found the death powers tier list on this site to be murky at best. We have Unrestricted Murdering, Unavertable Death, Omnislayer and a few more. However for the sake of this argument I will just be using the name Absolute Death. Whichever one it is.
What I was trying to explain to Nekron is that Absolutes vs Absolutes can not result in one absolute taking the other in a decisive manner as he claims AI would take AD.
To better explain this I will use the old philosophical question many of u may know.
Which would win out?
The Unstoppable Force VS the Immovable Object
They are both absolute in their characteristics so that makes this question impossible to answer.
However what Nekron is basically saying is the unstoppable force rams through the immovable object. Which as u guys know makes no sense. You can’t say that any more than you can say they cancel each other out because that would be a win for the immovable object. Neither one can be said to be the winner while maintaining clear logic. So what is the best answer we can give. We don’t know.
To translate that on this site and to what I’m talking about let’s bring in the two absolutes where discussing.
Absolute Immortality: Nekron has now pushed this power to the max and has said the only thing that can kill this power is an Omnipotent.
Absolute Death: Taking Nekron lead if we push this power to the max it would read the only thing this power can’t kill is an Omnipotent.
Nekron argues an AD user can’t kill an AI user. He says it’s because the AD user is not Omnipotent. That’s true but I can also argue the reverse and it’s true because we are dealing with absolutes.
An AD user can kill an AI user because they are not Omnipotent. Do u see how both statements run counter to each other and can be seen as true.
The only solution to this which we do for most absolute powers on here and is a common practice is the may limitation.
AI page should read
May be able to be killed by AD
AD page should read
AI May be immune
It’s that simple. Nekron wants one absolute to overpower another and logically that doesn’t make sense. If there is a flaw in my reasoning someone please tell me. If not I’m gonna talk to a bureaucrat because Nekron seems to be using his admin status to abuse his power and change things In accordance with his wishes that don’t make sense.
Yeah, I can definitely refute your claims. Absolute vs Absolute isn't always a 50 50, it's a case by case basis for every power. AI has life and death transcendence which is why UD and UM can't kill it, as simple as that.
Your looking at current UD because of u we have to bump up its standards to make them both true absolutes as u did to AI “. in that scenario there is no way AI comes out on top. U caused this nekron by changing the power to fit ur preference. U say it was always like that but it was not that is one of the many lies u keep telling.
As for bumping up powers, if we bump up erasure immunity to the level of nonexistence, then we should have something like the Meta Erasure Immunity, should we not? If Nonexistence is the power to erase anything that is not Omnipotent, why exactly can't be a power like Meta Erasure Immunity that is the power to not erased by anything that isn't Omnipotent? It's the same logic that you're throwing around, so, is that not a possible power?
No, because Nonexistence and absolute immortality are one of those powers that were meant to be a certain way. Just because you are in the wiki for a longer time, doesn't mean that I don't know what is the history of the wiki. The things with ironhindri, etc I know all that. I didn't "think" anything. I know how the power originally was.
As for your rants, you've continued this since yesterday but who exactly has supported your claims? You say I am this or I am that but I don't see anyone else supporting anything you're saying. You have posted this 9 hours ago and once again, the only one that is replying to you is me.
And, agreement with staff should be against wiki rules? I have literally no words for you.
Nonexistence opposite is Meta-Existence I’m tired of repeating this. I don’t need support for my claims. Other people may not care u change a power to fit ur personal preference but I think it’s a dangerous slope that’s why I called u out on it.
You can say what is what meant to be but the fact remains U changed it. Nonexistence went this route to and to reign it in Meta-Existence was made. U caused this Nekron not me.
I’m arguing for absolutes of an opposite nature to be equally limited by each other. U want one of your favorite powers to be OP that’s why u changed it the way u did. U bringing up other powers that are not true opposing absolutes makes no sense in this situation. U do realize to change AI u had to go change limitations for other pages right. This is blatantly showing that the power was not originally what u changed it to.
Wow, I said a defensive counterpart of Nonexistence not something that undoes it's effect. If Nonexistence is the strongest offense, then, there should also be something that should protect you against it which isn't what Meta Existence does.
And it is hilarious how you say majority doesn't matter, what do you exactly think wiki means? It is a fan made website where things are done by the fans. If one person is ranting on the wiki and no one else is listening, then I don't think those claims matter that much.
Opposite nature isn't applicable to all powers. There is no defense against Nonexistence ( Meta Existence isn't a defense), There is no opposite of Absolute change when hypothetically, there should be. There is also no opposite of Absolute Wish and so on.
And yes I had to change the limitations of other powers, much like how after changing Nonexistence, the limitations of other powers were changed. Doesn't mean a thing. Those other powers were created way after the creation of AI. These as I said were the original powers of the wiki that were meant to be a certain way.
I’m not getting off topic with u again. Let’s keep this clear we are here because u changed a power to suit your own preference and bulldozed other powers to make urs superior. That’s a violation.
Also when I said majority doesn’t matter I meant it doesn’t make u right. Would u think I was more credible if I had 100’s of other users backing my claims. If so ur weak minded. The only thing that should matter in this situation is right and wrong and not how many people agree with u.
This is as I said a fan made wiki, what you think is right or wrong DOESN'T matter. If other people of the wiki agree with you and think that what you're saying is right then it it is right. You do not own this wiki. I honestly think you have some sort of superior complex.
Let me make clear what happened: I put a proposal on the discord which was approved by a bureaucrat. I applied the changes and then you started ranting and created some new page. Then you ranted on the discord to some other admins and then changed the page. This is what happened and all the while no one in the wiki supported you.
I am saying this the last time that I have put up the thing in the staff room, so that I can discuss this with the other staff members. If they think what you're saying is correct, then the pages will be changed accordingly.
Also, you have been hurling insults at an admin since yesterday, I am saying this as warning, be more respectful from now on and have a civil discussion.
Once again it seems to me ur being overly sensitive. My gosh Nekron I may stop engaging with u all together. U seem like a bit of a. We have both been passionately arguing our positions I thought and hear u go getting weird on me again.
Look don’t change a page in accordance with ur own beliefs and I want call u out on it. Since this is the point where u seem to be taking things to heart again I will be done with this.
Firstly, you're changing the page according to your own believes, not me. I had the approval of a bureaucrat. Secondly, responding to the wrongful claims of "power abuse" isn't being sensitive. I guess you need to know what that term means.
Unlike me, you have no support to your claims and your statements are just rants, nothing more. So, from now on I am ignoring your claims about this matter. Whatever will be decided by the staff will be implemented nothing more, nothing less.
This has already been discussed with other admins. While a theoritical absolute death inducement is possible, in fiction it has never been demonstrated and likely would never will. There exists no user of Unavertable death/unrestricted murdering that can kill everything except an Omnipotent being. Even the strongest users of those powers cannot kill at least one being from their own verse. So, if we upgrade the status of those powers, there will be no users and it would just be random fan made crap.
Writers cannot even deal with normal deaths, let alone absolute ones.
Well, many users of AI can be harmed but they regenerate and they can be sealed/imprisoned. FI users not only don't have those limitations but also they are 100% invincible. Essentially, FI is the strongest defensive power on this site (even more than Omnilock) and you can say is a combination of AI, UI, Absolute invulnerability and all the other defensive abilities.
The capabilities doesn't say that the users can kill anyone/anything that isn't Omnipotent. It simply says that it can kill the "unkillable" meaning high level immortals. Point is neither UD nor UM are the "absolute death inducement" power that is opposite to AI.
I don't see a need for either. UD as I said is NOT the absolute version of death inducement. It is merely a combination of death inducement and immortality negation (clearly stated on the page). It is a power to induce permanent deaths on mortals and high-level immortals alike not the power to kill everything with the exception of an omnipotent being.
Well Nekron2 u got what u wanted. It seems people are agreeing with me. That was ur prerequisite for my argument to hold any weight right? Also u got mad at me for saying this before but I still think this makes u weak minded. Even before others agreed my point was valid.
U super-wanked a power that was fine as is but refuse to do it to its equal and opposite because u want AI to be top tier for some reason. This as I have already said so many times just doesn’t make sense.
It's not just absolute immortality that has gone through these changes, all the absolute powers will be going through these revision. Absolute powers are the highest level of powers currently on the wiki. Depending on a case by case basis, the absolute powers will be changed. Also, many powers that have absolute category slapped on them will not be considered absolute. People tend to use absolute/omni/meta synonymously when they are completely different thing, so that will be worked upon.
As for the equal and opposite thing, it will be as I said, a random userless absolute power that'll be "same but stronger" version of death inducement, a type of power which currently are being heavily scrutinized. Every power needs not to have an absolute version especially if it has been demonstrated in fiction. For example- Omni power mixture will most likely be deleted
So completely take Absolute out of our best death power then because it is as u say not true to whatever u guys plan to do on this site with the absolute abilities. Basically we have no absolute death ability on this site. Also about Omni Power Mixture being deleted I actually sort of agree with that. See we have some things we agree on.
Well, yeah, UD will not be considered as an absolute power by the new standards. Every absolute power will be reviewed and on a case by case basis and the power will either be changed like Absolute Immortality or they'll no longer be considered to be absolute powers.
Furthermore, not every power will have an absolute version especially if it is a userless "same power but stronger" kind of thing. Also, honestly, despite everyone taking UD as the absolute death power, it's not. It is merely a combination of immortality negation and death inducement, nothing more. Yeah, the also called section does make it look like it but the also called section is just an exaggeration of the power in most cases (which will also be worked upon, a lot of powers will be renamed as well).
All in all, the wiki doesn't have an absolute death power (according to the new standards) is because it hasn't ever been demonstrated in fiction.
This kinda reminds me of Nonexistence. It was created to be a peerless power of unstoppable / irreversible annihilation, and for years I struggled to keep it this way despite endless waves of nerfing/counter attempts (I imagine it being basically real-life true death - universal, complete and forever - turned into the "one power to ends it all" didn't sit well with many people emotionally).
At some point, I just gave up. Powers are bound to be questioned, challenged and ultimately balanced by others. It's just part of their life cycle, and it seems to always turn out this way sooner or later.
I doubt Absolute Immortality will be any different. Only Omnipotence is apparently safe from this, due to being the nebulous ultimate level of power rather than an ability in itself.
Actually, some times even Omnipotence is challenged by people. For example, there was a whole debacle with Almighty Replication and Omnipotence. Many people said that since Almighty replication isn't affecting Omnipotence, the user should be able to replicate the power of a an Omnipotent being and become Omnipotent themselves.
So, yeah even Omnipotence isn't safe from this. People don't seem to like abilities that have no restrictions which is why they try to invent restrictions. So, yeah, AI will be no different than Nonexistence, although in the case of AI, far less people are trying to revert the changes than in the case of Nonexistence.
Indeed, because Absolute Immortality is a very comforting idea, while Nonexistence is the opposite.
Omnipotence was challenged more times than any other power, but always came out on top, partly because it is the most comforting idea of all, partly because of its highly dogmatic origin, and partly because of its status-centered nature, that effectively counters any cricticism by "if it can be defeated, surpassed or fail, then it's not Omnipotence".
Honestly I can’t speak for others but I have no sort of emotional issue with any power on this site whether they be of an apocalyptic nature or not. Whoever does should probably seek help. My issue in this situation is only the fact that Nekron2 seems to be favoriting one power in order for it to overpower others.
Powers can be top tier that’s not a problem hell I have made a couple of top level abilities on this site. They jus also need to make sense in relation to other abilities. Honestly even Nonexistence stopped making sense at one point because of wanking and that’s why people probably kept trying to change it.
Technically, theoritical opposite powers can be created for every power on the wiki. For example if there exists almighty magic, then why not absolute magic immunity. Because those powers have never been demonstrated in fiction and aren't unique in the least bit. Hence, not every power will have an equal and opposite counter.
Nonexistence was created from day 1 as Omnipotence itself entirely focused on pure annihilation of any target. I don't think think you can "wank" it any higher than that ^ ^; As for the reason people tried to nerf it all along while Absolute Immortality never received such a treatment, it seems a rather obvious guess.
It's the point I made as well Nekron, times and again. Didn't stop Nonexistence to be eventually countered by Meta-Existence, which is undeniably a reversed copy-paste without real logic/identity of its own, that allows the user to induce any result at will without any limit (so basically Omnipotence).
So prepare to see a lot of counters that don't contribute overly much to the Wiki ^ ^;
Well, you get my point- probably absolute change and hypothetical absolute immutability will be a better example. I have already stated the reason- absolute death Inducement has never been demonstrated in fiction, hence the wiki doesn't have it.
Honestly, it's kinda hilarious to talk about equivalence but only by the new revision will we achieve something close to that. Tell me why is absolute change a specialized variation of omnipotence, AI a sub power of Omnipotence and absolute combat is nowhere even close? By your logic, absolute powers were equal and at the same level before I changed AI, even though that's never been the case. Only under the new revisions, will we achieve something of that sort.
Invulnerability/Invincibility: incapable of being harm or attacked i.e. Imprgenable
Immortality: the ability to live forever i.e. Eternal life
Not taking sides but the dictionary splits the two..... coughcough not fused together or it would he called
Invulnetality ...never see or heard of any of these
The power the behemoth displays in the bible may not be a single power but two seperate abilities ...meaning he has both Absolute Invulnerability and Absolute Immortality..not Absolute Immortality acting like it ate Absolute Invulnerability
I would say Absolute Change is an expression of Omnipotence (change anything at will) rather than a variation, Absolute Immortality seems a sub-power because only an Omnipotent is absolutely immortal, and Absolute Combat (along many others) is overly hyped and doesn't deserve the Absolute part.
They should certainly be equals within their respective fields (Absolute versions of greater powers should logically outclass Absolute vesions of lesser powers), but things are a bit messier atm due a lack of clear/official/firm stance on these matters.
Combat and Change hmmm I see no relation there. Also u even point out that AC is a specialized variation of Omnipotence there isn’t much on this site that can equal that power, Absolute level ability or not.
Absolute Attack and Absolute Defense are examples of equal and opposite. Combat there is not one I can think of that would be its natural opposite. You seem to think I’m making up these opposites out of thin air but there is a clear logical line to them. Life opposite Death, Attack opposite Defense, if Absolute Change had an opposite it would be Stagnation but I don’t know how that would work.
This isn’t me trying to create opposites but of cementing the natural opposites that already exist. Ur jus throwing out all this random stuff that doesn’t make sense.
However with what you’ve done now there should be no reason why Absolute Combat shouldn’t equal Absolute Change. To bump Absolute powers up to their max means they should all be limited by each other all cuz u wanted to wank AI. Congratulations👏
I would agree that the Difference in between certain abilities can be clarified by similar weaknesses or similar attributes meaning conceptual or greater etc. But powers could be split into Categories as just human like, more than human, super, ascended , transcendent, meta , pata , Absolute, Omnipotent and then be added to each individual category and ok only have applications to a certain extent in that category. Abilities that are common combative and could be used at any level like defensive or offensive abilities can be put into a category listed as dependent on power or status of the user....
But there is no fusion or scenario in which Invulnerability means Immortality or vica versa
Well, I was pointing out the obvious flaw in your logic. You said all absolute powers should be equal (currently absolute is the highest level), meaning either all absolute powers are close to Omnipotence or none of them are. Also, by the new revisions, meta combat will be turned into absolute combat, so, yeah absolute combat will be in the same league.
Also, I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself but AI is that strong now because all the current listed users can only be killed by an Omnipotent being while absolute death inducement has never been demonstrated by anyone in fiction and thus cannot be a power. It's simple logic. Not all powers will have absolute versions, and not all powers will have an opposite (even if they are theoretically possible because they are neither unique nor have been demonstrated in fiction).
Yeah, I agree but even though meta addition might seem as a "counter", it still cannot defend you against Nonexistence, neither can it reverse it's effect (the added thing are merely new thing, old ones are long gone). So, technically, Nonexistence stiil has no defense/counter. Also, since new rules regarding userless absolute powers are on the way, I think uselless opposing powers may not pop anytime soon.
Death from DC comics is capable of Absolute Death Inducement. She is gonna end the DC Verse thus killing everyone short of an Omnipotent. Also where did u get the idea she could not kill Lucifer. The fact she is gonna end the DC verse means Lucifer as well.
The only thing I can think of is ur misinterpreting a comic where Lucifer meets death in the black void and he must think he is dead or close to death and when he sees the actual Death he tells her “You have no claim over me” She then replies “never said I did”.
This does not mean what u seem to think it means. Lucifer who was obviously shaken after what he had jus went through awakens to see Death sitting across from him and he basically tells her with pride as is he is known for that he is not dead and she has no claim on him. She responds and agrees with him indeed he is not dead.
This doesn’t mean she can’t kill him or that he won’t die because again as I said and as is cannon based on the sandman comics the fact that death will end the dc verse and there will be no living things left when she does means Lucifer will be claimed at some point.
So an absolute Death power can be made as I did with Death of the endless as a user. The only reason I didn’t fight to have that power saved from deletion is because it was worked out that u would be reigned in and the satisfactory limits would be added to AI but since u went back an undid all that and as u say we don’t have an absolue death power i now see that absolute death inducement may need to make a return.
Good point, I didn't realize it was actually a counterpart rather than a countermeasure.
Was Absolute Death Inducement truly never demonstrated though ? Surely, among the enormous amount of fantastic stories produced over the last 70 years (and the particularly productive last 20), there is bound to be some beings out there who can complety kill any other in their respective setting ? Statistically speaking, it seems almost inevitable.
Yeah, we do need to keep the proliferation of Absolute powers within reasonable limits somehow, probably by limiting them to legit powers with official users, or at least a high-quality content that actually contribute to the Wiki.
Okay, even if we take what you're saying is right, there are still two beings she cannot kill- The presence and the Great evil Beast. None of them are Omnipotent (Overvoid is the Omnipotent being in DC verse). Even Presence cannot kill the great evil beast (and ends up merging with him) and for Presence I need no explanation.
For Lucifer, when it is stated that death will end all of DC verse, Lucifer isn't part of that, he is one of God's two earliest creation, predating the DC verse. The DC verse came after them (Lucifer and Michael) and that DC verse will be claimed by death. Lucifer confirmed that the only way he could die is if presence himself killed him and that's not gonna happen anymore as he left the DC verse. So, he isn't gonna be claimed ever and that text in the comics definitely means the same.
And as of as of currently, there is another character that Death cannot kill-Pralaya. She existed before the DC verse existed (it basically came from her similar to oblivion of marvel) and when the DC verse ends, everything goes back into her. Hence, at the end of time, Death will kill the DC verse but not Pralaya as she existed before the verse, is completely beyond it and will herself exist after the end of time.
Actually, death from supernatural held the record of being the only one in fiction that can kill even God but after the introduction of Darkness, that got wiped away. The thought of an "absolute death" is even more depressing than Nonexistence as death is part of all our lives and if no magical crystal can bring back you and not even the highest level of immortality can protect you, then that generally doesn'tsit comfortably with people.
Hence, stories don't tend to use it at all. Even visual novels that are known to take extra steps don't have this power. For eg- the infamous mystic eyes of death canot kill archetype Earth. If you sit back and observe then you'll find that the more established a franchise js, the more death is cheap in it. Even franchises that do not have any means of resurrection somehow bring back dead via some ridiculous plot device.
Most of that is your head cannon because we have no idea what death actually ending the universe will look like. What is cannon is the fact that she will. You gave me a lot of speculation about what u believe all to keep AI on this pedestal u want to have it on.
If we want to get really technical as someone else pointing out you may be conflating Immortality for invincibility with ur new AI because Leviathan and the Behemoth bible passages where god says only he can overcome them is more about there strength and invincibility not there Immortality which u seemed to use as the basis for this upscaled AI.
I believe in equal exchange for powers as every power should have a true equal opposite . The only reason TOAA may not be able to kill his counter part could be explained with something as simple as the Living Tribunal and Mikaboshi. He could not kill him because he is his counter part, agreed that TOAA may not be a true Omnipotent being. No Omnipotent being has a counter or equal. But even higher level entities under Omnipotentence have counter parts....
There could be a power which is Nigh Immortality that might fit the standard of not being able to be killed except by god. But then you run into the Scenario in which it would need an equal because nothing under god is truly absolute it is subject to change i.e. death. And if this user is soo Immortal it can't be killed whose to say it cant kill everything else and then itself i.e. Absolute Death Inducement. If I think of other scenarios I'll be sure to share. I'm not taking sides but logic dictates that everything has an opposite. Just coming from a scientific standpoint. If you were to argue it being magical or science based you could also say they are one in the same such as an unmovable object must also be unstoppable object. So even in the sense that one may achieve this newly buffed Absolute Immortality via magic alone and this magic user could kill everything except for God and is subject to no rule except his own. The user could break their own rules /limitations and still kill themself.
True, Absolute Death Inducement is considerably more relatable as it is the everyday reality of our world, so it does hit much closer to home in a deeply unsettling way. While Nonexistence has something fantastic and mysterious to it, so despite the similar sense of dread its idea inspires, it comes off as more distant emotionally.
Both Absolute Immortality and Absolute Death Inducement do seem bound to be nerfed sooner or later though (except as traits of Omnipotent beings), since they tend to get in the way of epic stories.
Many entities in fiction were long depicted as untouchable, until some cosmic cataclysm dragged them down from their pedestal to increase the narrative stakes to truly epic proportions. Similarly, story-breaking Death Inducements like that of Death in Supernatural are eventually found wanting alongside some unprecedented new threat, for the same stakes-rising reasons.
Still, it's true that the more long-lived a franchise is, the cheaper death tends to be in there, mostly because status quo tends to become the key of their longevity, and while periodical additions contribute to it by renewing the audience's interest, radical changes like perma-death of important characters tend to do more harm than good sales-wise, unless they serve important story-telling purposes that make it worthwhile in the end. And even then, they often come back eventually ^ ^
Not really, it's been stated as clear as day in the comics that Pralaya was there before creation came into existence, and will be there even after it's long gone. The Endless reside in the sphere of Gods and their power don't work outside Limbo because there, "DC comics stop being DC Comics". All of this is according to the new map.
As for Behemoth and leviathan, they lack any weakness and death is a pretty big weakness. That's the reason why God himself will come and slay them at the end of time not death. And, no, my basis for AI were Lady of Pain, Archetype Earth and Hades Izanami.
Your not saying anything different who’s to say that Pralaya isn’t one of or is the last thing Death claims before she leaves the universe as I said u keep coming at me with headcannon. Canon canon officially states Death will end the DC universe and when it says DC universe it means everything.
Every nook and cranny. Universes considered apart not apart all of it will be gone. It didn’t say the dc universe but not this part or the dc universe but not Pralaya it said she will end the DC Universe in its totality. So there is no speculative headcannon loophole you can spew out to try to change that simple fact.
Also more headcannon from u about the most read book on earth the Bible of all things. God will not slay Behemoth and Leviathan at the end of time in fact in psalms he is shown already killing Leviathan and feeding the Hebrews with its body. Also to get even more technical Behemoth and Leviathan are theorized by biblical scholars to not have even been real creatures but metaphors used to tell a story which the Bible is known for doing.
So nice try Nekron2 but ur obsession with certain abilities like Omnilock and now AI has u here trying to say anything to avoid having a power to desecrate your oh so sacred AI. Again this is a gross misuse of power and u have already demonstrated u will jus undo my edits to correct this and as an admin u can do more and seemingly get away with it.
With that being said this is the last I will speak on this matter. If I cared more I would take more drastic action like contact Community Central since the staff seem to be jus letting u run amok here. However using ur own logic u should see ur wrong now because more people seem to agree with me on this matter.
However like the weak minded person u are I bet you’ll jus throw out another excuse and backtrack and say that doesn’t matter now. All ur talk about how this is a community before and now ur being blatantly hypocritical and completely ignoring the community. You haven’t even responded to RegalHarbinger and other users who have been talking to u on this board. It’s sad and it’s pathetic and I can wash my hands of it now because I have obviously gotten my point across. People can tell right from wrong as I have said and u Nekron2 r wrong.
Careful there. I understand you're disatisfied with the situation, but your current attitude towards Nekron constitues a clear breach of our revamped and now very serious Rule 3, with the consequences that implies.
For the records, a well-oiled new disciplinary procedure has been developed by the staff and should be officialized soon, so it's probably wise avoid attracting negative attention so you don't end up as trial run for the new system.
DYBAD U do realize I hardly ever edit and am not a heavy page creator these days or ever really so a block or ban really makes no difference to me. I mean as I told u in our dispute if anything in the above statement constitutes disciplinary action then I don’t see it. All of u on here seem very sensitive honestly.
However with that being said it really doesn’t matter to me either way. I appreciate the warning I guess. However knowing u it wasn’t something quite so noble I believe.
Blocks and bans are meant to uphold pre-established conduct standards more than "smite" offenders, so whether they are active or not isn't elevant in this context. Though I did notice you have been pretty active in comment sections recently.
We are certainly quite sensitive on these things after all that happened. Some will experience it as frustrating and restrictive, but we are confident a vast majority will appreciate the shift towards a more civilized community where rules are for real.
It was just the reasonable thing to do, and you're welcome.
Wasn't trying to take sides but I have had Sage M tell me adding to an idea or fusing two ideas doesnt necessarily make it a true ability. But I'm all for Absolute Invulneratality lol as long as it has an equal unless it's an expression of Omnipotence I could see that as reasonable.
@DYBAD Yeah I have no idea of the inter-wiki politics that go on here so maybe u guys deserve to be sensitive I don’t no and my recent comment activities have all been about pointing out stuff I see is wrong or doesn’t make sense but honestly it’s like beating a dead horse.
So last thing on this board for me I promise. I’m no longer interested in engaging with Nekron I see his position and it’s unchanging no matter what I or others say but DYBAD tell me honestly what do u think about the current debate were having.
I mean the whole thing from Nekron2’s updated AI power to the point I am trying to make with this thread. Honestly tell me am I being unreasonable?
I honestly haven't kept up all that well with the Absolute Immortality debate, but I do believe there should be an Absolute Death Inducement too, even if it doesn't have official users yet. They complete each other quite well, and while ADI isn't as popular as AI, it is still an amazing power in its own right (capital Grim Reaper). As for who beats who, we can just leave it as as open question since there is no official/definite answer, and simply let each writer choose their own and make sense of it.
There is statistically bound to be some users out there, and even if we can't find one we can just reference Omnipotents who have performed some spectacular execution of otherwise untouchable entities, since both AI and ADI are sub-powers anyway.
Thank You!! Honestly all of what u said are exactly my thoughts on the situation. With how ever present death is in the world and in fiction for us not to have an Absolute level death ability makes no sense.
This has been should a entertaining thread. But yeah Nekron2 has been wanking on OMNILOCK, ABSOLUTE IMMORTALITY & META POWER IMMUNITY for to long.
I do agree that Absolute Death Inducement should be a thing, possible user could be the original Grim Reaper.
I also agree the every Absolute power should have an equal.The only second powers to Omnipotence is 1. Author Authority 2. Metapotence 3. Ultipotence 4. Almighty Replication. 5. All Omni Powers, Absolute Powers, Meta Powers.
Huh, I don't think that you have read the recent comics at all for saying those things. It's been clearly established that the power of the endless don't work in limbo and things beyond it as they can only affect the DC verse and at limbo, the term DC verse is not applicable. Pralaya, Perpetua, etc exist, beyond it. She has re-absorbed the multiverse countless times at the time of the sea of Brahma and will continue to do so and that's an established fact, she will always exist.
Also, you saying that we don't know how DC verse will end is ridiculous to say the least. It's been clearly stated that at the end of time (which as I said above is also known as the time of the sea of Brahma), Pralaya absorbs everything and then a new Multiverse appears and after many eons once again the time of the sea of Brahma comes and as a result, once again she re-absorbs the new multiverse. This cycle continues endlessly.
Also, giving actual statements and proof isn't speculation. What you're doing is speculation as I don't see anything backing up your views. You have onde statement that death will end the DC verse and you're basically saying that this may possibly (again speculation) mean that she will somehow kill Presence, Pralay, atc when the recent statements clearly state the contrary. In fact from a certain point of view, the previous statements about death may not be even cannon anymore as literally everything has been retconned on DC. Presence is no longer responsible for the source wall and Perpetua has been retconned to be the creator of the Original Multiverse. Pralaya has now been shown as the one responsible for the end of time as she is the embodiment of nothingness and re-absorbs (not kill) everything back into the void and she has done so countless of times will do continue to do it endlessly.
As for Leviathan and Behemoth- The book of Job clearly states that these beasts were created by God to show the futility of questioning God, hence nothing can kill them. The leviathan that was killed by God is the female one- there's a male and a female. God killed the female one to prevent their breeding as then nothing else will remain on earth. The male leviathan will be slain at the end of time and there are many depictions of God coming to slay Leviathan at the end of time with his sword. Next time, please get your facts straight.
Well, theoretically as I said jt is possible but practically not really. The thing is if we are creating powers to complete other absolute powers then by default every power including Nonexistence has to follow that which doesn't make any sense.
In fact when the people tried to limit Nonexistence, they had the exact same argument- If Nonexistence is Omnipotnce concentrated as pure offense, why can't tgere be a power that is Omnipotence concentrated as pure defense. If Nonexistence is the power that was never meant to have any defense, the why can't a power be created that is meant to have any offense. Then by the same logic you're using, we can simply create such a defensive power and slap some Omnipotent being like Para Brahamn or God as the users but that is not a good option.
The reason is simple-just because a power might complete another power, doesn't mean it should be allowed on the wiki especially if it's neither unique nor does it have any legit powers.
Meta Power Immunity clearly states that it is the power to be immune to all absolute, omni and meta powers. That's the literal definition of the power. Omnilock is one step above it. So, sure as hell that's not wanking. They are by definition, limitations to most powers on the wiki.
Nekron2 well you even tried to limit nonexistence with omnilock lol.
That's because the page of Omnilock clearly stated earlier that it is immune to Nonexistence and after a discussion, I am the one who changed it. Also, please don't de-rail the conversation, if you anything useful to add to the situation, please do so, otherwise refrain from derailing.
about this discussion, AI and absolute death aren't even a variation of omnipotence so i agree with royalguard. you can't make an absolute power overpower another and you're putting AI to the level of reader embodiment (which is a ultimate defensive version of omnipotence in my understanding).
this is my final, don't reply to me. i leave this disccusion.
True DC comic fans know the deal Nekron2. I’m no longer gonna waist my time arguing posting paragraphs back and forth with u because it’s pointless. Also u pulled the female/male Leviathan crap from the Talmud which isn’t even Old Testament. 🤣🤣 Please go and try to lie to someone else because that seems to be all ur good at.🤣🤣
Wow, I thought this was gonna happen the moment you lost the argument, resorting to your almighty defense known as emojis. "True DC fans", i.e, the people who don't even know anything about Pralaya/Perpetua which have been recent hot topics and probably you missed the Judeo-Christianity part which is written everywhere Behemoth and Leviathan are mentioned. This was kinda expected.
about this discussion, AI and absolute death aren't even a variation of omnipotence so i agree with royalguard. you can't make an absolute power overpower another and you're putting AI to the level of reader embodiment (which is a ultimate defensive version of omnipotence in my understanding).
this is my final, don't reply to me. i leave this disccusion.
I know you said not to reply but two things-
1) I am the one who created Reader Embodiment and AI is not on it's level.
2) The discussion is about creating an absolute death power. AI isn't overpowering anything as there is no absolute death power. The discussion was if a n absolute death power should be created.
I'm not saying there should be opposites for each and every power, as we agreed during the discusison on Discord it should be reasonably limited to interesting ones with an identity of their own, that constitute a valuable addition to the power cosmology.
Nonexistence for example is both offensive and defensive, so a defensive counterpart wouldn't make much sense. Absolute Immortality and Absolute Death Inducement on the other hand are quite clearly two sides of the same coin, and there is no denying that Absolute Death Inducement is an amazing power in its own right.
Look how incredibly popular the Death Note series was, now imagine this same power freed from all limits, applying equally to any entity of any power, on any scale and from any distance, with no more than a sovereign act of will. How is that not terrifying and awe-inspiring in equal measure ? And does it not offer some of the deepest themes and most captivating dynamics a story can have ?
Bestow it to a strong-willed character with a good moral compass, and you instantly get enough narrative potential to write an entire book, if not a whole series : everyone else wanting to either kill him or use him while dreading the fatal consequences of any wrong move, the character genuinely wanting to use it to make the world a better place despite the life-ending nature of his power, the constant ethical dilemna of weighing lives and ending some to save others or letting nature run its course and leaving countless innocent to die, the crucial necessity to distinguish between greater and lesser evil and its ever-increasing difficulty as events unfold and entangle the character in their multilayered complexity, all the psychological and philosophical implications of his every decision and the stacking consequences on his personal life and relations, the eventual realization of the deeply amoral nature of life and death and the ultimate futility of all his efforts and sacrifices, yet the refusal to give up and determination to achieve a positive net result despite everything while refusing to lose himself and all he cares most about.
Just imagine how mind-blowing a story that would make...
So preferences aside, saying Absolute Death Inducement isn't an interesting power is just not true ^ ^;
1) Nonexistence isn't a defensive power by any means. Yes, you can protect yourself using it but but a defensive ability is the one that only protects you from any attack. You can defend yourself using a sword but at the end of the day, it's still recognized as a weapon, something to be used for offense not as a shield/armor. The vice versa is also true you can use a shield to attack like captain america.
2) Death note was popular because it showed a very intelligent and logical person getting some power not because of the death inducement factor. It was a game of pure intelligence. People for the first time saw a person actually using their power in logical way because in every media, the "intelligent" characters manage to get thousands of powers and create thousands of weapons and practically never use it outside of defeating a single villain. The story could be fashioned in that way because the death note had many limitations. With Absolute death, there is little to nothing to write about, you're an invincible force of nature and that too, the greatest one: the one that is inevitable, irreversible and unconquerable: death. A no limitation protagonist like that is in no way, shape or form remotely interesting. It's like trying to make adult Franklin richards the main protagonist of a comic and having the vulture as the main villain.
Imagine Light being able to kill anyone including the shinigami, he didn't even need to know a person's name or face and there was no limit to how many people or what he could kill. He just willed it and it happened. He would simply kill Ryuuk, L and even the concept of death from himself thus becoming immortal (he wanted to live longer to rule over the world). He would be the true god of the world in an instant and that's hardly a good story. This is why destructive powers, no matter how haxed/broken, have some sort of limitation. Otherwise the story becomes incredibly hard to craft, the same isn't the case for defensive powers as they don't allow you to one shot your opponent, you have to use your defensive abilities to your advantage to win a battle.
3) What you're giving is again a hypothetical scenario. As I have said countless times, a good writer can craft a good story with any hypothetical power but doesn't mean that the power itself is good/unique. For example- Say a writer creates a power called "Almighty-Magic Negation"- the power to nullify almighty magic and gives this ability to a little boy in a crapsack world ruled over by a maniac user of Almighty Magic, making the child the only hope of humanity. Boom, a good story is created. Does this mean "Almighty-Magic Negation" is a good and unique power? No. Does this mean it should be part of the wiki even though it has never been demonstrated? No.
That's what I'm saying a good writer maybe able to craft a good story using this power in distant future but that's a big maybe and pretty unlikely to happen. I mean the reason people consume fiction is because they want to get out of the harsh reality that no matter what they do, one day death will consume them and all they did will be forgotten. These fictional media therefore are generally are crafted to inspire hope and the characters are generally flawed and relatable. That's why writers don't tend to use the capital grim reaper in the story as they're the one thing that no one wants to meet. The only character like that was death from supernatural and even he got rekt.
I don't have to re-word my response. Meta Power Immunity contradicted itself by having other power being resistant to it, ex: Meta Immunity Bypass. How can a user be immune to all power yet have other power being resistant to it. It does make sense.
Oh ur smarter than I thought Nekron🤣🤣 Yes the Talmud would be the Judeo in Judeo-Christian but they are commentaries written by men.🤣🤣 Its not actual Torah it’s men writing down how they interpret Torah🤣🤣. Anything if it supports ur argument though right?
Haha!! And yes ur right we have gotten to the emoji part of this discussion because as always I see clearly now u r a joke. Also ask any DC comics fan what they think about Death and Pralaya and U have ur answer to that. Pralaya is a fad character on the level of Darkseids daughter who’s lasting impact will be zilch. Death has not been retconned from ending the Dc Verse that is still and always will be cannon. Nice try with the lies though!!🤣🤣
So Nekron2 answer me this. What happened to this being a community. U scolded me for that before but everyone in here is telling u ur wrong and ur not listening. I guess ur jus a hypocrite right. Ur only willing to listen to the community when they agree with u.🤣🤣
Honestly, I don't even know how dumb you get. Pralaya is a "fad" character, what a convincing argument. She along with Perptua are canonical, whether you like it or not. Both of them have been hot topics as Perpetua is now the creator of the original DC multiverse. So, stop using the term "true DC fans" when it's crystal clear that you haven't read any recent DC comics. I know I'm talking to a brick wall but take a look at the following-
Also, only Talmud? The same thing thing has been clearly stated in Book of Enoch, Genesis 1:21 and so on. When we talk about Leviathan and Behemoth, we mostly talk about Judaism that's why the Judeo-Christianity is mentioned everywhere. Also, wasn't that supposedly your last message?
And, I suppose 4 people who backed out of the discussion without contributing anything are the entire community? Yeah, I think you should really work out the definition of certain terms.
I’m really trying to stop but ur blatant lies won’t let me.
First Lie: Genesis 1:21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
No mention of male and female Leviathan. Ur headcannon must have filled that in.
Second Lie: Book of Enoch is Apocryphal. As in not apart of the accepted Canon of the Bible jus like the Talmud would be considered extra Biblical. U care about canon right Nekron2 or only when it supports ur argument.
Dc universe stuff. Frankly put the DC universe is a mess right now. The cosmology varies between different writers as in whoever is the current writer for the current series determines the Order of the universe. The canon is shaky at best. However I say again one thing that still is canon is Death ending the universe in its totality.
Also even in the layers u showed Death still has access to ones above her sphere. In the endless comics limbo was mentioned and death said it took great focus to align ur mind to places beyond certain spheres. I said there would be no more paragraphs so I’m gonna copy paste someone else’s view on DC cosmology as it stands which I agree with. So u tell me what cosmology u follow because it changes depending on the writer.
Do, you even know the meaning of Judaism? Not everything has to come from christianity. Leviathan is mostly discussed in Judaism, that'swhy Judeo part is there. As for genesis? It literally states this-
"the...sea monsters: The great fish in the sea, and in the words of the Aggadah (B.B. 74b), this refers to the Leviathan and its mate, for He created them male and female, and He slew the female and salted her away for the righteous in the future, for if they would propagate, the world could not exist because of them. הַתַּנִינִם is written. [I.e., the final "yud", which denotes the plural, is missing, hence the implication that the Leviathan did not remain two, but that its number was reduced to one.] – [from Gen. Rabbah 7:4, Midrash Chaseroth V’Yetheroth, Batei Midrashoth, vol 2, p. 225]."
My theory, which is something I again regard as subjective, is that Nil is exactly what it appears like on the Cosmic Map, a Floating Bubble above everything else, including the Source Wall. Yes, Snyder's Cosmology changed that, as well as the origin of other story plots. So with this, I only speak of what was shown in Morrison Cosmology.
My logic is based on the idea that Mandrakk's battle in The Unexpected resulted in the deaths of Neon and the Bad Samartian. Both of them fell out of Nil and landed in the Monitor Sphere's Cosmic Forge. This points to the idea that Nil at the time of the Unexpected was above the Monitor Sphere. This was yet again altered in JLA 2019 when The Forger took the heroes to Nil but then immediately afterward showed the Source Wall in the Promethean Galaxy edge. Nothing there fits together, sadly. I'm not sure what to make it as a whole except to say that DC has infinite Multiverses and what we are looking at in The Unexpected is not the primary canon universe for DC that Morrison showed in Superman Beyond. The Multiverse of Snyder's new Cosmology, also just another canon Multiverse out there. All of which was contained by the original "true" Nil that has no Source Wall and was directly floating inside The Overvoid.
Logically, that is the only way I can see how to explain all of it in one go. IE:
Yep, there are two version of Mandrakk, maybe more. One is still falling in Overvoid, the other had his own cosmology and history where he was sent by Monitors and his food source was taken away in The Unexpected. This is its own Mulitverse
Yep, there's yet another Multiverse in which that was disregarded, due to Perpetua being the Flaw's creator and Mandrakk and Overvoid not knowing it, but she references Overvoid? So, that means there is also another third Multiverse here we are reading about in JLA 2018-2019 with the same characters but all with a 2nd origin.
And then we of course have Morrison's continuity, which is different from these two, and that one seems to denote that Nil is directly imparting space with Overvoid and exists outside of the Source Wall, which Perpetua and the others were scared of and get their power from.
This is headache worthy, but that is the only way I can see it. Its all literally different canon-Multiverses all contained by a larger collective concept. The same as Hypertime and universes, but now its damned Multiverses too
Do u see the problem now? So Nekron2 which cosmology do u follow?
This is still going on lmao? Sup RoyalGuard, long time!
Anyway, the Demo two cents:
Considering Omnipotence is considered the epitome from which everything else stems, all Absolute powers are naturally just specific expressions of Omnipotence. Whether one Absolute power is stronger than another Absolute power is based entirely on the verse with which the power exists (as well as whatever the author of said series says on the matter). Opposites will exist (as they always do in some form), but without the Word of God then all directly opposing Absolute powers result in a draw.
So on to the topic of "Absolute Immortality (Absolute Life) vs Unrestricted Murdering/Unavertable Death/Omnislayer (Absolute Death)" (we really need to merge those three death pages, they all say the same damn thing in a different way FFS ). RoyalGuard is correct: Absolute Life and Absolute Death cancel each other out. One is not above or below the other. Thus the save-our-SPW-souls stipulation of "may" needs to introduced.
P.S. I really do believe those three Absolute Death pages need to merged into one and given an appropriate title, there really is no need to have all three. Added to the Delete List
Hownestly, I think you're wanking death too much here. Presence is way beyond the endless. She cannot kill him in any way shape or form same with the great evil beast. No DC comic author or fan will ever admit that.
According to the latest cannon, Pralaya is the end of all things, has always been, will always be and she will always exist. So, whatever you decide as cannon, everywhere she has cannot kill at least one non-omnipotent being.
Genesis Rabba (Hebrew: בְּרֵאשִׁית רַבָּה, B'reshith Rabba) is a religious text from Judaism's classical period, probably written between 300 and 500 CE with some later additions. It is a midrash comprising a collection of ancient rabbinical homiletical interpretations of the Book of Genesis (B'reshith in Hebrew).
Ur posting other people’s headcannon and trying to pass it off as the truth. Torah is Judaism most sacred book. Ur posting interpretations of Torah and trying to pass them off as authentic. If I interpreted the Torah and posted it would u then agree with me.🤣🤣 Please quit while ur ahead Nekron2. The lies on top of lies is sad🤣🤣
@Nekron again that’s ur headcannon overwriting canon.
@Demotivator It has been a while. It’s good to see u. My favorite partner who I have shared such great teaching moments with to people on this wiki who jus make no sense and disregard logic and here we are yet again.
Also the merging of the death pages I agree with totality. Ur right when I was searching the site for our best death power I was appalled at how many we had that were basically the same. Demo we need to get on these changes quick because as me and u both know things for us have to make sense and right now they are not.
1) I didn't say Nonxistence was a defensive power, I said it was both offensive (erase targets) and defensive (erase attacks) which it factually true, and was explicitly described from day 1 as "the most effective form of ofense/defense". It does also include a fair bit of utilities, but nothing comparable.
2) As you certainly noticed, the scenario I described for Absolute Death Inducement would involve a very different kind of protagonist from the one in Death Note, one that would be determined to make the best out of the worst while preserving what he cares most about. As extensively described in the previous post, there is definitely a huge narrative potential in this path.
3) Your counter example is clearly a lot less interesting with considerably less potential, so not actually comparable. And being a good writer or not isn't the point. Many fascinating powers are challenging to include in stories, and still found their own niche nonetheless. Omnipotence for example is the ultimate story-breaker and thus rarely ever utilized in any story, yet has its own page and is referenced a lot because of how fundamentally amazing it is. Absolute Death Inducement is similarly amazing and has more narrative potential as previously detailed, so there is honestly no legitimate reason to object a dedicated page.
I understand you have a strong preference for defensive powers (Absolute Immortality, Meta Power Immunity, Omnilock, etc.), but that does not make offensive ones any less interesting or worthy of their own pages, and said preference should not determine what is or isn't possible to create on the Wiki.
Demotivator made a good point in the meantime, pointing out that 3 absolute death powers already exist (Unrestricted Murdering, Unavertable Death and Omnislayer) and largely overlap with each other.
The best thing to do seems to simply merge them into an overall Absolute Death Inducement, that would cover the core concept and detail within the various forms it can take, without redundant multiplicity.
On closer look, Omnislayer is a physiology-based power (technically Absolute Hunter Physiology), and Unrestricted Murdering is actually pretty restricted in practice (distance, speed, scale, and the various conditions of each user's specific means).
Unavertable Death on the other hand seems to already be Absolute Death Inducement in all but name (it is even classified as the opposite of Absolute Life Inducement).
So the only question left is whether or not it would work on Absolute Immortality. Rather than create a +1 power for this only purpose, it seems preferable to just leave the question open, and let each writer decide how it goes in their respective story.
That's exactly what I have been saying. I didn't want UD and UM to be deleted for the sole purpose of having a power whose only job would be to rival AI. That would actually place beings like death from supernatural and the last word in regular death inducement which is ridiculous.
But again, UD as it is right now, cannot affect death transcendence and Absolute Life Inducement similarily cannot affect Life Transcendence which means UD again cannot kill AI and we're back to square one. This is what I have been saying UD isn't so much "absolute" when we take a look at the users and if we bring the power to the level of AI, it loses all it's users, ruining the power. This is the problem.
If you were a religious scholar of 300 CE, then yeah, I would have taken your interpretation into account. When we list religious things, we take into account all the historic interpretations. That's the reason why we list Leviathan as a transcended demon/angel because some interpretations list him as the sin of envy and one of the original angels to fall alongside Lucifer and Beelzebub.
This is also the reason why we list Para Brahman in the Para Brahman as the Omnipotent being in Hinduism and not Shakti/Shiva/Vishnu as different interpretations consider either one of these three as Para Brahman.
Also, man you're the one giving headcannon, as death killing Presence is one of the most ridiculous speculation I've heard in a long time and literally no DC fan/author will ever agree to that. I have given many facts about the latest cannon and you're basing ridiculous things on one statement.
Many absolute powers are lacking in terms of proper users, with very few among them being as absolute as the power is meant to be. That's not too much of a problem though, as long as the possibilities are mentioned and users represent the power well-enough overall, we can just leave the rest to our collective imagination and let it fill the blanks.
Yeah, I agree with that but I noticed one thing recently the opposite of UD already exists: Absolute Life Inducement and they both cancel each other out, so the whole thread was pointless to begin with. Absolute Death Inducement isn't even the opposite of AI, so the whole discussion was already meaningless.
You do realize that other interpretations disagree with Genesis Rabbah, right? You can’t take every interpretation into account because they are not all on one accord. Source material is the only thing that matters.
Also u do realize every instance u point to on this site of doing that has been u right?
The DC stuff I could right a book on. I can tell u don’t actually read the comics but go online and skim for overviews about what’s happening so I’ll let u believe what u want. You keep saying latest cannon and that’s further proof you have no idea of what’s actually goin on.
1) Not even close, religions are based on various interpretations. Plus, the death of Leviathan at the end of time, God making him, etc are literally mentioned in the book of Job, psalms and isiaiah in the hebrew bible itself:
I really don't know if you know anything you're saying.
Plus, the DC stuff, you've been saying just shows that you're the one who haven't read any of the comics, you said that there "maybe" an infinite multiverses when, it's been clearly stated in the comics that there are many multiverses in the greater Omniverse and that Perpetua was sent to build a new Multiverse in the greater Omniverse, this literally happened recently during the whole debacle with totality. Plus, you've been wanking Death to such ridiculous levels, that not even a single DC fan/author will agree with that.
U don’t even understand the text ur reading Nekron2. The Leviathan referred to in Isaiah is Satan not the sea monster Leviathan from the book of Job. Stop talking about stuff u don’t understand please ur jus making urself sound ignorant.
Also ur whole based off of interpretations spits in the face of many different faiths and beliefs. They have a set of accepted systems that all believers follow. Are there different denominations for individual religions yes but u can’t just interpret something one way and then hold that belief that’s not how it works.
For the DC stuff tell me since u know so much of the current Dc titles in publications which ones are following the Morrison cosmology and which ones are not.
Wow. Now, I am leaving the Leviathan matter entirely and I am not engaging in religious debates with you anymore.
But just one thing, by no means is Satan the leviathan in Isaiah, there is just one mention of something similar to satan and it is this- "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit (Isaiah 14:12-15).". Again, where exactly are you getting your facts from?
As for DC, my question is which cosmology? As Grant Morrison has explicitely stated in interviews that he believes that the multiverse is a flaw within Overvoid that the writer (his self insert from animal comics) placed it forcefully upon the overvoid. So, that cosmology?
Verses 1-13: “Leviathan” is a symbolic monster also referred to here as “that crooked serpent … the dragon,” or Satan. The context indicates that Isaiah has in view the final victory of God over Satan
“Leviathan”: This term appears in four other Old Testament texts (Job 41:1; Job 3:8; Psalms 74:14; 104:26). In each case Leviathan refers to some mighty creature who can overwhelm man but is no match for God. Since this creature lives in the sea among ships (Psalms 104:26), some form of sea monster, possibly an ancient dinosaur, is in view.
Some feel it was a crocodile, which had scaly hide (Job 41:15), terrible teeth (Job 41:14), and speed in the water (Job 41:31-32). Some have thought it was a killer whale or a great white shark because he is the ultimate killer beast over all other proud beasts (Job 41:34). It could also have been some sea going dinosaur.
Whatever it is, it is a symbol of evil. This is all speaking of the spirit of Satan, in the form of a serpent.
Maybe, you didn't read the "in the book of isaiah part". Also, not even close. You're confusing the red-eight headed fire breathing serpent-form of satan that was defeated by Michael. Satan's defeat is absolute by his hands. Leviathan the sea creature hasn't and will never be satan. The book of isaiah clearly refers to satan as the Morningstar, so bright that his light eclipses all, never as a dragon. The book of revelations mentions Satan as a Dragon and it's completely different from Leveiathan as Leviathan was defeated by God and Satan by Michael. Just because both have been described as dragons in completely different instances doesn't mean they're the same.
As for Morrison's cosmology: none. It has been completely retconned- Perpetua has been stated to have been created the multiverse by renting the flesh of overvoid with it's permission, so the flaw thing is completely gone. Even animal man himself was present in this situation to stop Perpetua, to further make it more legitimate. So, that cosmology is now gone.
That was commentary from a Biblical scholar who has a Doctorate in Theology and Biblical Studies. I literally jus copy pasted it. So your saying you know more about the Bible than him. I will point out and this that this is his interpretation but I know ur stance on interpretations is that u listen to them all. Also they are other interpretations similar to his so u jus contradicted urself as I knew u would.
Also DC stuff WRONG!!🤣🤣 I knew u didn’t read the comics Morrison also brought in Perpetua in his cosmology later on retconning his earlier statements of the Overvoid sending out a probe to investigate the flaw however the flaw is still mentioned. There are many current cosmologies at work in the DC comics verse The Snyder Cosmology and the Morrison Cosmology and (insert writer name here) cosmology. Literally this is what I have been trying to tell u.
There is no latest or established canon with DC right now. The fact that I asked u which comics are currently using the Morrison Cosmology and which are not was a dead giveaway to the shit show DC currently has goin on right now. Perpetua has subtle differences depending on the Morrison or Snyder cosmology and like I have said in some current stories the overarching hierarchies of the universe harken back to an even earlier time. For me to explain in detail I would literally have to write an essay on here. So please stop acting like u read the comics.
If a biblical scholar cannot differentiate between the book of isaiah and the book of revelations, then yeah, I do.
As for DC stuff, huh, where do I even begin, there was a literal discussion about all this but to summarise: All this stuff was introduced in Justice league 2018, what you're talking about are the various animal man comics, synder cosmology (the batman who laughs), etc, basically the previous cosmologies which had been brought under a single banner by the Perpetua stuff as it establishes a greater Omniverse. All the stuff you mentioned happens in entirely different multiverses as there are many in the greater Omniverse. So, there are no contradictions anymore.
The latest doomsday clock for example too maybe took place in a different multiverse (where we came to know that Dr Manhattan was much more powerful than any of us imagined). The reason why Grant morrison's cosmology isn't considered cannon is because now the flaw thing is no longer there and now there are multiple multiverses allowing all stories told to be cannon as they take place in different multiverses.
You do realize the book of Isaiah foreshadows a lot of Revelations right. Also u really jus said u know more about the Bible than a biblical scholar. On that not alone I should call it a day and be done with u.
DC stuff, Nope, nope, nope and more nope. I’m not even referencing the batman who laughs that’s not even Snyder cosmology, nor am I referencing doomsday clock. Nekron2 u don’t know what ur talking about stop with the charade.
Go on a DC comics forum and tell people about ur beliefs on the established hierarchy of the DC verse and they will laugh in ur face.
Firstly, which biblical scholar says that Leviathan and Satan are the same. Can you please provide their name and where they say this exactly? Yeah, I am really interested. Even if "book of Isaiah foreshadows a lot of Revelations", it clearly states that Leviathan is killed by God and Satan in the book of revelations is defeated by Michael, not God.
About DC, synder comics not cosmology, that was a typo I mentioned animal comics and synder comics. Also, I don't think you understood at all what I typed. The latest perpetua stuff was an attempt by DC to remove inconsistencies and establish a proper cannon. They failed at an earlier attempt of rebooting the DC with the horrible new 52 and since the recent story (which started at 2018 and ended somewhere in the 2019) manages to establish a cosmology that'll explain everything by saying "it happened in different multiverse", I think the wiki should accept this recent cosmology as it has been accepted by the DC wiki too (even though that wiki is terrible at keeping things up to date but I digress).
Also, if people would laugh at me for saying this, then I don't know what they'll do to you for saying Death can kill Presence and the Great evil beast.
I literally typed into google biblical commentaries and clicked a link and the man had his bio at the top of the page. He based his commmentaries off of Mathew Henry a famous nonconformist minister who you can look up. His biblical commentaries basically say the same thing however u know more than him of course🤣🤣.
I’m not talking DC stuff with u. Ur clearly ignorant of everything that is happening in DC Comics right now. Also tell people on a DC comics forum that Death of the endless will end the dc verse and they will simply say, Yes, they know.
Huh, so, you seem to know more than the DC wiki, seems legit. And the forum I posted posted just showed how many people agrre with you: 0. No one denied that Death will end the DC verse but everyone except you know that it doesn't include Presence. The forum above shows that, so my initial point is proved.
As for Mathew I looked up and I didn't see him saying anywhere that Leviathan is Satan. It says that leviathan is a serpent/dragon and some think it of as a crocodile, how does that mean Leviathan is Satan, I have no idea. What you're using the transitive law? Leviathan =Dragon, Satan=Dragon, so, Leviathan=Satan? Please don't tell blatant lies in the name of scholars.
he does and will destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil, that great leviathan, that old serpent, the dragon. He shall be bound, that he may not deceive the nations, and that is a punishment to him (Rev. 20:2, Rev. 20:3 ); and at length, for deceiving the nations, he shall be cast into the lake of
Also, you do know that people don't describe omnipotence in the same terms as we do in such forums? If you say Omnipotence can do things beyond logic in those forums, you'll see what people's reaction will be.
In your forum true fans who actually read the comics did agree with me. One rightly points out that presence has already died twice which I know is a shocker to u because you don’t read them bIt here you should look at this.
“Thank you both. I have new Information to discuss.
James Tynnion confirms that Dark Knight Metal conforms to Morrison Cosmology and that The Snyder and Tynnion Canon is another Hypertime lane, its another canon for DC/Vertigo. My theory was 100% proven correct. This saves me a ton of energy trying to debate this further.
The Morrison Nil Monitors contain all the stories from every other canon Hypertime lanes, because Bleedspace contains Hypertime. And only one group can consume and hold Bleedspace: Nil Monitors. This is case closed. I'm totally going on vacation for a while, I need it. Ha.”
Further proof of DC convoluted hierarchy that u claim had been wrapped in a neat bow. DC comics fans are constantly at each other’s throats because unlike what u believe the Cosmology is not clear and there is no set canon it is chaos.
1) I said "attempted" to remove the logical inconsistency AND it is the latest iteration of DC cosmology which is why I said "new cannon".
2) Presence can be killed by himself. Yes I know he has died by the hands of Gabriel with a sword of his own making, he has been temporarily replaced by God Swamp thing and so on but the endless cannot do it, in fact the same link that you provided says this- "Grant confirms this in an interview when he says The Endless are still concepts of an even higher metaconcept of themselves."
3) There is another, too-
What about The Endless? They are certainly more powerful than Monitors, aren't they?
"No, they are not. Starting with the Cosmic Map, all of the Endless are cited as inferior to Limbo, of which Nil is still above. All of the Endless, even The Dreaming and Morpheus are listed in clear text as below Monitors in power.
Furthermore, The Dark Knight Metal series goes out of its way to show you that Monitors are responsible for Creation and not anything related to The Presence. Here, Dream of the Endless confirms The Presence did not make Creation.
Continuing, Dream of the Endless also cites that his entire Dreaming is being burned by Barbatos and he cannot stop him. In fact, he cannot step into The Dark Multiverse and requires Superman and Batman to go in his place."
Again the comment I posted is one commented on the actual page. There are some things that can be shown in scans like presence deaths and some others I disagree with that can’t be shown like Endless and their functions.
I’ll admit I agree with poster about Presence but on a lot of his other points I don’t. Jus like a majority of the comments from that posting. Read Nekron2 I told u it is a shit show at DC right now. There is no established accordance that everybody agrees on.
And as for Leviathan, his interpretation is exactly what I said about Leviathan earlier that he is the demon of Envy and the text mentions him the devil because he is the one of the original angels to fall alongside Lucifer and Beelzebub not because he is satan. In fact this has been supported by the german bishop Peter Binsfeld. He gave this-
How do the DC and Marvel cosmologies compare in terms of coherence and consistency ?
For licences this big that have this many characters featured in multiple series simultaneously, each written by different people who regularly change, under divided executives who regularly change their mind, with over 70 years of constant adventures in every possible direction, and a steady cosmic escalation to keep the audience interested, isn't it virtually inevitable for their continuity to grow increasing convoluted and even contradictory ?
These licences seem to be just too huge, ancient and super-active for the whole thing to make sense.
I never said that everybody agrees upon these thing as I know they don't. Same thing is happening on a lesser scale with Marvel, however since the immortal Hulk issues were mind-blowing this has cooled down there a lot recently.
But, what we have are a lot of statements from Grant Morrison and a lot of other writers stating that various beings are above but I think, that this wasn't even the point of the original discussion, so it's better to give it a rest. You accept what is cannon to you and I shall do the same.
@DYBAD You pretty much summed up the problem and rather coherently as well. It’s just as u say. DC at this point is a symphony of chaos where cosmology and consistency is concerned. Every writer acts like there actively trying to spite the writer that came before changing things in a way that makes establishing a clear cut cosmology at this point impossible.
Given how long DC has been in publications it may shock you to learn that within the last ten years major changes have been made to its continuity. These changes have been drastic but that’s not really the issue.
The issue is the changes themselves are being changed. Then they were changed again. Currently even now as we speak there are certain issues out retconning what was literally jus retconned it makes no sense. You laid out the reason why better than I ever could though so you have a good grasp on why this is happening.
In marvel comics, at the very least cosmology is fixed, so people don't worry that much about it. We know that the abstracts serve designated purposes, LT is the multiversal guardian and TOAA is the supreme being, that's it but with DC it's hard to tell what being is above whom. Many writers like Grant Morrison contradict other stories and writers.
Honestly, if we are only referring to christianity, then yeah, according to some interpretations like the one you posted here, Leviathan is the Devil/Satan but even then Leviathan is still a user of AI as he can only be slain by God and God created Satan as Perfect in every possible way, so he is still as immortal as ever. However, when it comes to interpretations, St. Thomas Aquinas, too described Leviathan as the demon of envy. And he is a pretty big philosopher and catholic priest. So, yeah many people described him the way I said.
But if we strictly stick to Judaism and look into texts like Talmud (which is the central text for Rabbinic Judaism and the primary source of Jewish religious law and Jewish theology, I don't know what you were going on about) then what I have been saying is 100% right. In judaism Leviathan is exactly what I said he is.
This is my final take- As i pointed out that the original discussion was that absolute life should be countered by absolute death which I agree upon, the problem is AI isn't absolute life, absolute life inducement is and it is the opposite of UD. Both, counter each other, so the inherent discussion about AI being affected by UD as it is absolute life is moot.
I just want to hear your final thoughts on this matter, what do you think? Since, you have been a neutral person in this discussion, I think it's best to apply what you think.
The only real difference between Unavertable Death, Unrestricted Murdering and Omnislayer is that Unavertable Death apparently makes it so that resurrection/regeneration/revival is impossible. Such a stipulation can easily be added to Limitations or explained in Capabilities.
Omnislayer being an upgraded form of a physiology is bogus because what even is a "Supernatural Hunter Physiology" other than an archetype similar to Assailant or Crimefighting Mastery? Though, please don't argue with me on this point in this thread, that argument can be had elsewhere, preferably on the page itself. Unrestricted Murdering has no real restrictions other than those placed on them by the author, much like Unavertable Death. Brings us right back to the point: no need for all three to exist. At the very least, one of them needs to be merged into another. Too many synonymous powers exist on this wiki for incredibly inane reasons.
As for the whole Absolute Immortality vs Absolute Death [Inducement], considering the term "immortal" is defined as "undying" or "living forever" rather than "being above life and death", I would posit that some form of Absolute Death [Inducement] power would naturally be the antithetic power to Absolute Immortality.
Though at this point, Absolute powers are just a clusterfuck of semantics anyway, so whether you see the logic of my point or not is beyond me. *shrugs*
Note on Absolute powers
I really hate Absolute powers. They're such a hot steaming pile of annoying shit. They can never be agreed upon. And someone somewhere will always try to justify one being able to out-do another (regardless of whether it can or not). Cancerous things they are these Absolute powers.
Well, technically, you can argue that when living forever is taken to absolute levels, then the user will be above life and death or at the very least above death as the concept of death at least isn't applicable to them. And honestly, the antithesis of Absolute Death inducement should be absolute life inducement, not immortality which it already is.
I think in the very least UD should be separate from UM as they are good powers, the way they are. If anything, we can tweak UD a little bit to turn it into absolute death inducement.
But I think, we should wait for DY's reply as he has been observing as a neutral party since a long time.
When anything is taken to Absolute levels, the meanings become pretty blurred in all honesty. I could see someone with Absolute Life Inducement creating a being with Absolute Immortality being one of their applications (the whole Absolute Life Inducement power kinda confuses me anyway). But then I also see [Absolute] Life as a whole being synonymous with [Absolute] Immortality as a personal opinion. I see what you mean though, in black-and-white, life opposites death so ALI would opposite ADI but you know... *shrugs*
I mean, at the end of the day, DYBAD is merely another voice in addition to the ones we have here. Neutrality only pertains to taking both sides of the argument equally and impartially, weighing up both party's arguments and then making a decision based on them. One way or another, DYBAD will either agree with you, with RoyalGuard or with neither of you. But if this is the route you want to take, since both myself, you and DYBAD all hold mod roles (or higher), an executive decision could potentially be made, which all parties should democratically accept.
Indeed, I think an executive decision is a logical option because after looking into Absolute Life Inducement, I think the whole point of the discussion was meaningless to begin with as we already have absolute life and absolute death countering each other and it has nothing to do with immortality. People just mistook AI to be the absolute Life power when in fact it's not. We literally wasted 20 days on a meaningless conversation.
I mean, like I said, I see "Absolute Life" (and just those two words alone) being synonymous with "Absolute Immortality". Things get more complicated when the 'Inducement' word gets thrown in. Then this becomes that and that becomes this and no-one can see straight. But all in all, it's basically a matter of one person's opinion versus another person's opinion, as it always is with Absolute powers.
Sorry if I mention things that have already een addressed above. Im kinda late.
I'm speaking for myself, but I'm certain I didn't confuse ALI with UD. Because another name for AI is endless life. Again Nekron, you tend not to make references to info on the pages. UD is the opposite of ALI, which has infinite life creation, so UD has infinite death ability. You can't shrug off one power when it has also stated to have no limits. Thats not how it works.
I don't think you understood what I said, endless life and absolute life are two very different things. Endless means infinite amount of something and absolute means apex of something. The point of the discussion was that an absolute life power should be countered by an absolute death power which it already does- ALI the absolute life power counters UD, the absolute death power and vise versa. AI isn't the Absolute life power, ALI is and hence the opposite of AI isn't UD, so the discussion was moot. If anything- the hypothetical absolute mortality inducement will the opposite to AI as opposite of immortality is mortality.
What was the exact question, Nekron ? Some much has been said on various subjects, I kinda lost track of what the discussion was mostly about ^ ^;
There is nothing wrong with entrusting a decision to someone we believe suited enough, it happens all the time in every organization. Though the voting approach does have the advantage of bringing a more solid closure to the debated subject.
My question was that point of the whole debate was- absolute life should counter absolute death but the thing is- Absolute Life Inducement aka absolute life already counters Unavertable death aka absolute death and vice versa. People assumed that the opposite of UD is AI even though it isn't the absolute death power at all AI isn't opposite of UD, ALI is. AI is endless life/eternalnal life and there is a lot of difference between eternal and absolute (which is why we have separate pages for eternal transcendence and absolute transcendence)
In fact if we think about the opposite and counter OP absolute Immortality will be something along the lines of "Absolute Mortality Inducement" because the opposite of immortality is mortality, not death.
So, if absolute life and absolute death are already balanced, then don't you think it renders the entire discussion moot and the confusions are now gone? I trust your opinion on this matter, whatever it is.
Unavertable Death is technically Absolute Death Inducement, and should probably be renamed as such to avoid confusion in the future. As you pointed out, Absolute Death Inducement finds its opposite in Absolute Life Inducement rather than Absolute Immortality, whose logical opposite would indeed be Absolute Mortality Inducement.
So yes, I think you answered all the questions here.