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Gohan Buu and Omega Shenron
Gohan Buu, in the anime, was collapsing the entire universe through chain reaction, although it had to lose control of himself.
As told by Old Kai, Omega Shenron would corrode and destroy the entire universe in a short period through the minus power, and during the battle with Gogeta showed he could concentrate all energy to a single attack, a universal buster attack.
Thanks. I checked through all of them.
Apparently the anime is different from the manga, but the thing is that all we see Gohan Buu actually doing is open up several holes in local space. Goku claiming that this would be enough to make alternate universes destroy his own is very suspect and unproven.
The second case is more reliable, given that the Dai Kaioshin makes the claim, but given that it would have been a gradual process, starting with Earth and then enveloping other planets and stars, one at a time, I'm not sure if it counts as an actual universe-buster. Maybe we could insert only Omega Shenron, and put (Allegedly and gradually) in a parenthesis? Antvasima (talk) 06:36, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
The fact that this scene is present only in the anime does not change, it is always success. Super Buu managed to open a dimensional gate through a scream, after absorbing both Trunks, Goten, Piccolo and Gohan his powers are increased considerably. I don't think it's a hyperbole, especially when Kid Buu, the weaker version, five million years, has also destroyed a entire galaxy. And to defeated Son Goku and Vegeta merged, for create Vegetto with the powers of both, not added but multiplied each other.
2*10^32 J the energy for destroy the earth
4×10^69 J the energy for destroy the observable universe
Apparently as you can see in the video, in the case that Omega Shenron would win, the minus power would destroy the galaxy in a short time, like the rest of the universe. Moreover both the kaioshin said that the minus power would arrive even their world.
And in another video, Omega has proven to concentrate all the minus energy power in an attack, an attack possibly universal level.
The point is that this is all just speculation. All that we have seen is Buu opening up a few warps to other universes in a small area. Plenty of fictional characters can do that without causing any particular harm.
Gradually destroying a galaxy star by star is so small compared to the near infinity of the entire universe that it is incomprehensible. Doubling or tripling his power should make no difference.
Similarly, all that we have to go on for Omega Shenron is that a reliable source says that his negative energy might EVENTUALLY spread throughout the universe. So it isn't remotely a one-go instant busted universe, and we certainly haven't seen it proven that his attack would instantly destroy the universe. In fact, his attacks were deflected, small in scale, and caused no harm to anything after Gogeta dealt with them.
So, again, it isn't like I'm completely unreasonable. I'm fine with mentioning Omega Shenron as capable of gradually destroying a universe, but Gohan Buu makes little sense to add as verified. Antvasima (talk) 11:48, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
Maybe, but in general this is the problem, Dragon Ball is very inconsistent and after the Namek saga, we never really saw other feats of a higher level, but the A>B>C and the powerscale logic is necessary to determine more accurately the powers of this characters. If you see from this point of view, Buuhan can technically destroy the universe through chain reaction, Super Buu before could open other dimensional holes, and Kid Buu in the anime had destroyed a galaxy, this seems possible that what Vegetto said is the truth, furthermore this is a work of fiction, use the logic of reality is difficult and not recommended.
Similar situation like Omega Shenron, Goku GT in the Baby saga has destroyed an entire dimension using a simple kamehameha, Sugoro said that the power was exercised when was just concentrating the energy was enough to illuminate an entire galaxy.
4×10^58 J visible mass-energy in the Milky Way
In addition to as kaioshin faced the situation, it seemed that the threat was imminent and that there was no known place from which to escape, not even Other World would be saved against Omega Shenron, let alone the physical universe.
But i think it is obvious that we have two different thoughts, in this case i would try to agree and find a solution that we like it to both.
Well, the power levels could just be linear for all that we know. Meaning that Goku at 450000000 should "only" be able to destroy 25000 Earths, and Broly who was even stronger (1.5 billion if I remember correctly) was destroyed by just being pushed into a star. Also take into account that all of that energy would be dispersed over a practically infinite volume. Meaning: Sun-busting attacks would have almost zero effect dispersed across that kind of area, which is why they destroy stars one by one at vast speed.
I don't think we should use the powerlevels are not linear, they are irrelevant and i would prefer to only use quantifiable feats or statements with logical bases.
As for Broly, which destroyed an entire galaxy without becoming the LSSJ, he was killed by Gohan and Goten's kamehameha, the Sun has just finished the work. Furthermore, as i have already said, it is not possible to use the logic of reality and put it at the same level as that of Dragon Ball, this also applies to all works of fiction where there are characters who destroy stars, galaxies and universes, although technically is impossible (for example the statement that the Giga Slave spell goes out of control, would destroy the universe, accepted by all even though we have never seen that the Giga Slave can destroy a planet).
So i want to ask you, why the feats of Dragon Ball should be considered hyperbole just because in reality are not possible, while in all other forms of fiction there are characters who can do and no one complains, even the feats that i mentioned before just very plausible evidence they are not hyperbole?
Well, the thing is that I agree with you that most fiction should be treated as equal, and Dragonball tends to be treated more badly than it deserves by fans of other properties (the admin at the versus Wiki seems to handle it like his own personal fanwanked and generally illogical biased and inaccurate petty tyranny for example), but it depends on how reliable something is. For example, I kept Omega Shenron because that was the Dai Kaioshin saying it, but he also said that the process would be gradual. Gohan Buu on the other hand only opened up rifts in local space and Goku is pretty dumb in general, so his stressed-out precautious opinion isn't all that important. Antvasima (talk) 17:52, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
Yet, from how they behaved the Kaioshin, the danger seemed very imminent, unlike Kid Buu (This the fist time he was really worried, even with Bills or Kid Buu has never shown this behavior, and regarding Buuhan knew that Vegito was more powerfull), and also the episode showed what would happen if the minus power it would be triggered, like the Giga Slave example (destroy the Earth and within moments corrupted/destroyed the galaxy and the entire universe) and shortly afterwards they said that their world would not survive. And as you can see on this page, the World of the Kaioshin is outside the physical world of Dragon Ball, light years away and in another dimension.
It is true that is never really seen that Buuhan was collapsing the universe, but apart from Mr. Satan, Dende, the Kaioshins and Vegito (not Goku) they stated that the entire universe would be destroyed.
All three characters have the KI sense and is used to determine how powerful an opponent or even in this case, the attacks. So it's logical that they weren't exaggerating.
Returning to the speech of the Kaioshin's behavior, I want to point out that after the fist appearance of Black Smoke Shenron said that if it wouldn't have been stopped would destroy the entire universe, and Popo tells thereupon a legend tied to Dragon and recounts that after being awakened has destroyed the planet where was evoked and shortly after did vanish the whole galaxy.
That's still too loose speculation to qualify Gohan Buu, and destroying a galaxy is extremely far from the same scale as destroying a universe. But I added Omega Shenron according to what was shown in the clips that you linked to. There is no real problem here. Antvasima (talk) 19:26, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
True, but i don't think Akira Toriyama or those who made the anime interesting the logic in the real world or they were experts of astronomy, if Buuhan could collapse the universe in the anime, there is no reason to deny the possibility and if we consider what I've said before, is not inconsistent with the powerscale or there is no real reason or contradictions to deny the facts.
For Omega Shenron just wanted to point out that it can destroy the entire universe in short time, not gradually.
Opening up portals to other universes in local space is not going to convince me I'm afraid. I'm only interested in what's show in the clip, not any speculation about it. Likevise, the clip said that Omega Shenron would gradually destroy the universe/that his negative energy would start with enveloping the Earth and then start to spread from there. Antvasima (talk) 05:38, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
Okay, let's talk again. After talking I compromised to a reasonable halfway solution with the entry that actually makes sense included and the ome that is just umproved illogical hyperbole not included. Then Stefano kept adding Buu over and over anyway. Antvasima (talk) 16:29, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
For Antvasima and Kuopiofi
I admit, i overdid it and maybe i didn't have to continue, but it is difficult that we can find a compromise, we have two different points of view.
In fact i was reminded of a proposal, to leave Buuhan in the Universe Destruction page always but also write that only in the anime filler he perform this feat (leaving the choice to the individual if it true or not).
Or we could decide by popular vote.
I did compromise by keeping Omega Shenron who is much more reliable, and popular vote would likely just lead to lots of Dragonball fans wanting to wank Buu. He really genuinely did not at all reliably show universe-destroying scale by opening up rifts in local space. That's just unwarranted speculation. Antvasima (talk) 16:43, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
Yet but like Vegetto, Dende, Kibito Kai and Old Kai reacted and they said, is the opposite of what you say.
In the anime filler with japanese dub Dende has tagged compared what happened in the room of spirit and time, Vegetto well clearly says that "If i don't stop him, this universe will be crushed by alternative dimensions!" and the event was just beginning, we don't see each other since then following scenes are focused in an attempt by Vegetto to stop him.
Also in the episode following Kibito Kai declares "If he lets him alone, he could release that power that can even break down the walls between dimensions!"
This feats he did not go either conflict with the DBZ powerscale. If Freezer could destroy 10 times more dense planets of the Earth, if Cell could destroy the entire solar system with a kamehameha and if Kid Buu (always only in the anime) has destroyed a galaxy in 5 million of years, then there is no real reason not to believe that Super Buu, after absorbing Gohan + Trunks + Piccolo + Goten, couldn't be at least a multi galaxy buster.
And you can't use the excuse that "it cannot destroy the universe because it is too large or is a different scale of a planet" because I do not believe that this reasoning may assert in a fiction.
As I said this only happens in the anime, but this feats has on his side the logic and statements that tests that prove its veracity and especially there is nothing that can declare the upside down, no feats or declaration in the anime.
The only thing we can do is consider cannon or not this feat.
Vegetto panicking is not a reliable analysis, and I do not think that Gohan, Trunks, Piccolo, and Goten could make up the difference between slowly destroying a galaxy, and destroying 200 billion galaxies! That is a very valid viewpoint, and not something to be dismissed by "it's fiction". Destroying a whole universe is an enormous big deal and needs conclusive proof, not just an unreliable say-so. In addition, no it is not canon to Toriyama's original manga story, and neither is any galaxy-busting for that matter. Antvasima (talk) 18:59, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
Vegito made it clear that the entire universe was at risk at that juncture and this dialogue appears in the original version, as those translated, he is not an idiot and have no reason to lie, there are also Dende and Kaioshin that say the same thing, if there are not denials directly from Toei Animation or Akira, then this feats did not reason to be considered a hyperbole.
Although we do not know how powerful Super Buu becomes theoretically after each absorption, but it is logical to assume that Super Buu > Super Buu (Piccolo absorbed) > Super Buu (Gotenks absorbed) > Super Buu (Gohan absorbed) know the powerscale, although non-linear, is not at odds with what Buuhan was doing.
Anime or not, does not detract from the fact that this has happened, not in the manga version, but it's always happened in the anime.
Anyway if Buuhan could not destroy the universe, then why the dialog lines instead tell the other way around? Why confusing the viewers? If the Toei Animation have written these dialogues and these scenes and if is not in contradiction with other scenes from the original manga (or the others anime fillers), there is no reason to say that Buuhan is not a universal buster via chair reaction (also if as you said yourself the anime is a another version, the feats within should not be in contrast to the manga).
1: It was written for narrative tension to make the viewers excited. Massive hyperbole is a common trick for that, but destroying a universe (again, 200 billion times as impressive as destroying a galaxy) is such an enormous deal that we need actual proof, in the form of a few dozen billion galaxies starting to be devoured by spacetime anomalies or somesuch, in order to make it reliable. As is, we have a half-idiot (Goku being half of him) making an apparent massive hyperbole claim based on a half-dozen small rifts in local space.
2: I don't think that you have shown me Dende and Kaioshin's reactions.
1: But if it were the other way around? If the scenes were written to demonstrate how much Buuhan is really powerful? But this is only a hypothesis, not different from what you said. Yeah, the scene was intended to make the viewers excited, but anyway this is not the case, to let you understand let's put it in comparison to one example:
-Goku and Paragus declare that Broly would destroy the universe.
Broly is not a universal buster, he is just a galaxy buster, nothing more, statements were focused on the fact that it is a universal threat.
-Vegetto, Dende and Kibito Kai States that if Buuhan hadn't been stopped, the universe would be collapse.
Here the statements was taking place simultaneously with the feats at the same time. Vegetto, Dende and Kibito Kai have describing what was happening in this scene and what would happen if Buuhan had continued undisturbed, the statements are intended to describe the situation.
However we need to analyze each alleged hyperbole or statements individually to see if it is valid or not, instead of generalizing.
3: Canon or not, is always happened, at least in the anime version
Okay, I watched the clips, and the point remains that we need actual concrete proof to make a claim of anybody destroying or creating universes. In addition Kibito Kai only says that Buu can break through dimensions, and Dende mentioning breaking out of the spirit and time temple is completely unreliable, as neither the pocket dimensions within, nor the universe without swooshed in to destroy the other. It is massive unproven hyperbole to get the viewers exited. Nothing more.
I don't think the Toei Animation would permit Buuhan to destroy the universe, the screenplay it not would permit, there was no valid reason from the point of view of the plot.
Kibito Kai refers to what had happened before, he refers the power to destroy the universe through dimensional rifts.
Dende compares what had happened previously, and when Buuhan lost control, clearly says that this time the break between dimensions was a major scale and while Super Buu was only open a single dimensional hole, Buuhan was breaking dimensional barriers of the entire universe, not instantaneously, but through chain reaction.
1: They would certainly allow starting to destroy the universe, but unless it is proven, it should still be considered as hyperbole to get the viewers excited.
2: Dende made an utterly illogical claim, given that nothing happened the first time (it shouldn't matter whether it was one or twelve holes in space, and Hulk punches through dimensions repeatedly without anybody thinking he's a universe-destroyer). Also, anime Buu powering up 200 billion times by absorbing Gohan makes no sense whatsoever, and Kibito Kai said nothing whatsoever about any universe-destruction.
3: I'm seriously starting to get tired of this. You seem to be using loose illogically grounded speculation to justify very unwarranted claims, in order to unwarrantedly boost characters that you care about. This is not an argument. This is wishful thinking versus fact, and I was STILL willing to compromise, but that doesn't seem to be enough for you. You want the whole cake made out of thin air. Antvasima (talk) 11:59, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
1: However does not delete or alter the fact the risk that Buuhan was actually destroying the universe at that juncture, to get the viewers excited or not.
2: There was nothing illogical that it Dende said. He told a Mr. Satan how previously Super Buu had opened the dimensional hole, and then explain that Buuhan was doing the same thing, only this time on a universal scale and that if it continued the physical universe would have collapsed. It is never said than Super Buu, in both the anime filler or original manga, become powerful after each absorption, and as mentioned earlier compared the logic of reality with fiction is not possible, simply does not function.
3: There is no reason to get nervous, but I'm not a fanboy, I know many characters who can destroy the entire DBZverse without thinking or engage.
But returning to the speech, I'm not one that says one thing without a evidence, and I have:
- The original video in Japanese, where all the characters involved are saying clearly that Buuhan was destroying the universe at that time, for describe the situation, and there is no reason to say that they were lying or overestimating the threat of Buuhan.
- Should not be at odds with the DBZ powerscale and given that the latter does not have a linear scale, we can't really put in comparison with the reality.
- Cannon or not, is always successful, if, at least in the anime version.
You instead continue to say that Dende, Vegetto and Kibito Kai said just bullshits, ignoring their reactions and the situation they were in and consider Vegetto is unreliable just because Goku is an idiot (which isn't true) although the latter is a skilled fighter and that thanks to the KI Sense can know how much is actually capable of doing Buuhan and also using the excuse that the scene was made to get the viewers excited, although this fact is irrelevant and devoid of importance in this discussion.
The only thing i can agree and that this feats is not cannon.
Anyway i already realized that none of us is able to convince the other, or one of us will give up or we will continue to discuss it forever.... maybe it's better to give someone else in this wiki the decision, otherwise we will be in an infinite loop.
1: Buuhan was only shown opening up a few rifts, not destroying billions of galaxies by creating them, so I'm afraid that I can only see hyperbole.
2: Again, no he wasn't shown destroying the universe, just opening up a few rifts over a few thousand cubic metres volume. The original manga at least was not so idiotic as claiming that people increased their powers 200 billion times by fusing together.
3: Okay. I apologise for assuming that you were.
Regardless, as you say, we are not going to agree on this, as all that I see is completely unproven hyperbole, and the admins here have stated to me earlier that they will not mediate. We could come to the compromise of adding the entries with ghe parenthesis: "(Claimed, but not remotely shown)", just to put a stop to this, but that's my final offer. (I would personally prefer to only list entries that are unambiguous on this page.) Antvasima (talk) 20:27, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
Okay, it seems to me acceptable.
Indeed, we could also use this method in other pages, i don't think everyone can agree if a character might be able to do or not do, this could may put in peace the supporters of veracity a supposed "hyperbole" and those opposed.
20. When you make powers that are sub-powers, techniques, Variations, etc. of some other power, add them to those pages.